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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2003 : 07:19:25 [Permalink]
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This struck me funny--in a GOOD way. Now I know why I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall when I'm trying to reason with a fundie, a bigot, or a Republican. They simply don't know what they don't know.  |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 07:28:17 [Permalink]
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If you think you know what you're talking about, you probably don't. If you're not sure, then you're probably right. I think. Maybe.
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
This struck me funny--in a GOOD way. Now I know why I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall when I'm trying to reason with a fundie, a bigot, or a Republican. They simply don't know what they don't know.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 08:03:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
This struck me funny--in a GOOD way. Now I know why I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall when I'm trying to reason with a fundie, a bigot, or a Republican. They simply don't know what they don't know.
I believe, and this is only personal opinion, that there are 2 main types of people. One that will strive to learn more about his/her surroundings. Look at any information with a healthy dose of skepticism and decide on its merits. They all have biases, but they are prepared, if the evidence is in front of them, to shift the line in the sand sometimes. At the opposite end of the scale you have people that are comfortable in their knowledge and have no desire to "rock the boat" if you will. The world is black and white, grey doesn't exist, my way or the highway, you're either with us or against us…pass the salt please.
Everyone has a comfort zone, my wife for example has been seeing one hairdresser for 8 years now....nothing in the world will persuade her to go elsewhere. Where does your comfort zone lie?
If you look at a die-hard conservative, fundie or whatever, they have spent so much of their life defending their belief that no other option makes sense to them. The die has been cast and often it takes a fairly monumental kick up the arse for that belief to be shattered.
Where as someone who is prepared to admit that it is human to err, will, with the right information admit that they may have been wrong and change their opinions accordingly.
For example, you might say though that most people that post on this board are steadfast in their belief in evolution and some may even say that their minds are closed. Even the less studied of us in that area have waded through countless books and articles on the topic, and after digesting the information will have come to the conclusion that the evolutionary theory makes more sense than what is supposed to have happened in the Bible. Many people on this forum are well versed in the Bible, to have a proper opinion you must look at both sides of the story. A creationist will mould his/her arguments around their belief and twist those arguments to agree with their point of view.
This happens in all areas whether it is politics, science, religion or any subject you care to mention. I'd bet for example, that there are many more die in the wool Republicans that Democrats. It goes with the territory.
I don't know if that makes any sense ‘cos I don't write too good.
Gezza
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 12/20/2003 08:24:47 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 09:00:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renea:
This struck me funny--in a GOOD way. Now I know why I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall when I'm trying to reason with a fundie, a bigot, or a Republican. They simply don't know what they don't know.
quote:
Gezzam:
This happens in all areas whether it is politics, science, religion or any subject you care to mention. I'd bet for example, that there are many more die in the wool Republicans that Democrats. It goes with the territory.
I think a case could be made that the study might explain creationist thinking or even a bigots thinking, and their arguments in defense of their positions. But I think you guys are on thin ice when lumping in Republicans. While it may be true that more creationists are Republican, it can't be said that all are. It is likely that the majority of Republicans except evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on this planet.
And not agreeing with a political position does not mean that your opponent is, by default, ignorant of what you see as obvious and therefor less skilled than you are at evaluating the evidence that lead to your opinion. It often means that after careful consideration of the available evidence, you find yourselves in disagreement... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 09:10:28 [Permalink]
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Guys, I was mostly kidding with the part about Republicans. Although you'd be surprised at how ignorant many of them are. Read the incoherent ramblings of Oliver North or Ann Coulter--who are, at the very least, ignorant and just plain wrong about what liberals think and feel.
It's a weird study, really. Because don't we all think, when arguing politics or some such thing, that if the other side only knew what we knew, they'd see things our way? Don't we all think the other side is weak at defending their positions?
But the mere fact that I think I know more about something than someone apparently makes me wrong. Or incompetent. But what if I really DO know more about something than someone? |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 09:34:06 [Permalink]
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I don't think Ann Coulter or David Horowitz can even be serious.
However, anyone who supports George W. Bush has a serious problem.
I think the study mentions that once you really do know a subject, you learn exactly how well you know the subject.
Not sure this information is all that helpful except in the matter of perspective. I think it was Einstein that talked about knowledge being like a globe that expands while that which we do not know is all around the globe. While that globe expands, it has more surface area so the analogy is while one gathers knowledge, one knows more about how little one knows. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 10:06:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
However, anyone who supports George W. Bush has a serious problem.
Of course, if the Bush supporter also happens to be a neo conservative, what problem do they have exactly? Seems to me, since half the country supports Bush, we are the one's with a problem. Are you suggesting that you are more expert in the area of politics than all Bush supporters?
I''m going to assume that in the context of this discussion, you are kidding... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 10:38:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
And not agreeing with a political position does not mean that your opponent is, by default, ignorant of what you see as obvious and therefor less skilled than you are at evaluating the evidence that lead to your opinion. It often means that after careful consideration of the available evidence, you find yourselves in disagreement...
As Renae said, the stuff that Coulter spews out is taken as gospel by a lot of conservatives. Australia there are right wing journalists with questionable ethics that have no problem with lying or selectively quoting sources. Maybe I'm generalizing because I have never been to the States, but in Australia there are many that take these words as gospel. These journalists work in Murdoch papers and they have well over 50% of the print market. With such power they have to suggest, they should act with much more responsibly. But there is always an agenda to support. We could start a new thread on media ownership and conflicts of interest.
The left ain't much better, they swing the figures to their advantage as well. But I think you will find few liberal journalists out and out lie. Their demographic won't stand for it. It's just that not all of their messages can come wrapped up in a flag. I admire the American love of their flag and their fervent patriotism. We are just as patriotic but……WOW, you guys go off. Just watch the difference between a golf game in the U.S. and here in Oz. When Tiger slams one 330 yards down the fairway the gallery goes nuts. I like that shit.
What I am getting at is that the conservatives seem to take this patriotism and point it in the wrong direction. No-one wants to speak out against their country, but sometimes you have to stop and say “Hang on, this isn't right” So in a round about way, a small percentage of conservatives are indoctrinated, trapped in their belief that those in power are acting in THEIR best interests. The problem is that they get more lies than truth due to an insipid media. Some conservatives are born that way and conservative they will be ‘till the day they die. My political views were given to me by history and are still open, subject to change. An out and out Republican is no different to a creationist or someone who believes John Edward can talk to the dead. They can be somewhat loose with the truth.
An out and out leftie loses interest once the party is over. Usually once the latest John Pilger book has been thoroughly dissected to the dulcet tones of Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix. It all goes pear shaped when the pot and beer has run out. Then they all complain loudly that everything is fucked, forget about the crap and go surfing.
I dunno if that's true, I just heard that. 
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 10:53:53 [Permalink]
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Gezzam, the patriotism thing is part of Republican ignorance and what I had in mind. Democrats get called unpatriotic and even treasonous (thank you, Ann Coulter. Gag.) by Republicans.
The Democrats I know--and I know a LOT--love their country, too. They are doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers, volunteers in the community--all of which is--LOGICALLY--serving your country every day.
So when Republicans define patriotism as rah-rah hawkish jingoism and then label anyone who disagrees as unpatriotic, they are ignorant of the many ways Democrats love and serve their country. They simply don't KNOW. They are IGNORANT OF THE FACTS. Fact: Democrats pay taxes, work in fields that help their fellow Americans, volunteer in the community, and donate to charity. Someone please explain how the preceeding things FAIL TO SERVE THEIR COUNTRY.
Yeah, my aging hippy Democrat mom HATES her country so much that she volunteers several hours a week to take care of older people. Yeah, my Democrat xH hates his country so much he was a nurse at the VA hospital. Uh....? Logical? NO. Ignorant? YES.
I try very hard to be tolerant of others' viewpoints and I usually succeed. However, being tolerant of ignorance is not a good thing. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 11:01:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renea:
Gezzam, the patriotism thing is part of Republican ignorance and what I had in mind. Democrats get called unpatriotic and even treasonous (thank you, Ann Coulter. Gag.) by Republicans.
Ann Coulter is a biggot.
I'm sure glad that we Democrats never stoop to stereotyping Republicans.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 11:07:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Renea:
Gezzam, the patriotism thing is part of Republican ignorance and what I had in mind. Democrats get called unpatriotic and even treasonous (thank you, Ann Coulter. Gag.) by Republicans.
Ann Coulter is a biggot.
I'm sure glad that we Democrats never stoop to stereotyping Republicans....
Maybe just a small percantage of Republicans |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 11:40:47 [Permalink]
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Where did I stereotype? I said "Republicans". I didn't say "ALL Republicans." I was talking about Republicans specifically when they play the patriotism card. "They" meaning whichever ones do it. Which is most of them--in my experience only.
I have yet to read anything written by a Republican showing anything resembling grace and tolerance toward the Democrats on the issue of patriotism--or on the issue of the Iraq war.
Now of course, someone will google it and find me one. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 11:48:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Where did I stereotype? I said "Republicans". I didn't say "ALL Republicans." I was talking about Republicans specifically when they play the patriotism card. "They" meaning whichever ones do it. Which is most of them--in my experience only.
I have yet to read anything written by a Republican showing anything resembling grace and tolerance toward the Democrats on the issue of patriotism--or on the issue of the Iraq war.
Now of course, someone will google it and find me one.
Dave W. is my bet
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 11:53:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renea:
Where did I stereotype? I said "Republicans". I didn't say "ALL Republicans." I was talking about Republicans specifically when they play the patriotism card. "They" meaning whichever ones do it. Which is most of them--in my experience only.
Ummmm....
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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