|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2004 : 19:47:07 [Permalink]
|
| I am EXTREMLY sorry to anyone whom I offended. It was a typo when I said "I hate gays". The whole point of my post was to say that I don't hate gays. It was a careless typo, I was doing my post fast, and I am very sorry to anyone I offended. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
 |
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 19:50:59 [Permalink]
|
Ricky wrote:quote:
Come on Dave, you should have this down by heart. What do Creationists say whenever a skeptic makes any kind of argument? Its in the Bible.
At least a couple of the creationists here tend to do me the favor of citing chapter and verse from their preferred version of the Bible, which is what I really asked for, anyway.quote:
Have you ever worked on a Sunday (or Saturday if you prefer the Old Testament)? Maybe you should stone yourself, its what the Bible says to do.
To be fair, you should really let creation88 respond to your question, rather than assuming the answer. Some of these folks might surprise you in their willingness to actually discuss these things, but you've got to give them a chance to do so. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 20:17:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
What do Creationists say whenever a skeptic makes any kind of argument? Its in the Bible.
Well duh....This is what we believe in. It's God talking to us. And it's the reason we believe what we believe. So what better to point to than it? |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 20:29:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Have you ever worked on a Sunday (or Saturday if you prefer the Old Testament)? Maybe you should stone yourself, its what the Bible says to do.
All the examples people give for what are seemingly ridiculous punishments for crimes, are all in the old testament. Before Jesus died and made it so we did'nt need to do such things.
And Dave, I would give you passages but there is nowhere in the Bible where it says the words "being gay is a sin". But it speaks to "men sleeping with men" as a peversion, in Leviticus, and I thought itwas in Ephesians but I could not find it. But it's in one of Pauls letters. I'll get back to you on exact passages when I find them, I don't have the time right now though. And I use "New King James" version if your interested. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 21:34:04 [Permalink]
|
Your right, I'm sorry, I did jump a bit too much.
Leviticus:
18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
There are a bunch of others I can put here too, but I think these ones are the most clear. I went through Ephesians and found nothing of the sort.
"All the examples people give for what are seemingly ridiculous punishments for crimes, are all in the old testament. Before Jesus died and made it so we did'nt need to do such things."
This brings up a very important question of Christians. Does the New Testament outweigh the Old Testament? And if so, did god change or was the Old Testament just wrong? Maybe Jesus changed god? Or god made Jesus for the purpose of changing how he was viewed?
As for cruelties in the New Testament:
Mark 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Rvelation 2:22-23
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
If I interpreted the last one correctly, it says that Jesus (I believe it is Jesus who is speaking) will kill the children of the parents who committed adultery? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 22:07:59 [Permalink]
|
Creation88 wrote:quote:
And Dave, I would give you passages but there is nowhere in the Bible where it says the words "being gay is a sin". But it speaks to "men sleeping with men" as a peversion, in Leviticus, and I thought itwas in Ephesians but I could not find it. But it's in one of Pauls letters. I'll get back to you on exact passages when I find them, I don't have the time right now though. And I use "New King James" version if your interested.
Well, Leviticus is Old Testament, and so doesn't count, per your argument about death for those who work on the Sabbath.
I found a list of Biblical references to homosexuality. While Paul wrote about it several times, the most detailed by far is in Romans 1:26-32 (from NKJV):26For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Thus, those who are homosexual (both men and women), and those who approve of homosexuality, deserve death according to Paul. This isn't an Old Testament thing - this is New Testament, love-your-neighbor intolerance at its finest.
At least Paul isn't telling you to stone them, C88, but he certainly seems to be inciting murder of some sort.
I find it strange that Jesus Himself is never recorded as having said one unambiguous word about homosexuality. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 23:25:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
What do Creationists say whenever a skeptic makes any kind of argument? Its in the Bible.
Well duh....This is what we believe in. It's God talking to us. And it's the reason we believe what we believe. So what better to point to than it?
From one who has never been religious and never read the bible, can you tell me why people think it's 'god talking to you'?
This is not to be sarcastic, I really don't know.
It is my understanding that people wrote the bible at various different times in history. Were they possesed at the time, in a trance with sprits talking to them? I don't know how a book is from god. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 23:32:56 [Permalink]
|
I think he's reffering to hell, when he says "death".
And no Ricky, God did not change. It was his plan right from the fall of man, to provide "a perfect lamb", at some point. Thus the death of Christ. As "proof". (when i say proof i mean biblicly, not necissarily proof to you if you don't believe in the bible) But as proof for my statement, all you have to do is look at countless prophesies in Psalms, and others bools. (i can list a few if anyone would like me to) |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 23:41:05 [Permalink]
|
quote:
From one who has never been religious and never read the bible, can you tell me why people think it's 'god talking to you'?
This is not to be sarcastic, I really don't know.
It is my understanding that people wrote the bible at various different times in history. Were they possesed at the time, in a trance with sprits talking to them? I don't know how a book is from god
.
Well, in some cases, like the prophets of the old testament, men were told directly by god what to write. And all of the new testament, is written by people who were directly in contact with Jesus. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 09:03:11 [Permalink]
|
"And no Ricky, God did not change. It was his plan right from the fall of man, to provide "a perfect lamb", at some point. Thus the death of Christ. As "proof". (when i say proof i mean biblicly, not necissarily proof to you if you don't believe in the bible) But as proof for my statement, all you have to do is look at countless prophesies in Psalms, and others bools. (i can list a few if anyone would like me to)"
First of all, biblical proof is the only thing we have to go off here, there is no choice for anything else, so its fine to use when trying to understand god, but not when trying to see if he exists. If god did not change, then why do all the Old Testament have horrible acts, such as stoning the people who work on the sabbath, and the New Testament did not? How else can you explain this change? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 19:41:10 [Permalink]
|
| oooook. Why did I even bother to write the post, if you were just goin to ignore it all. I say "this is only biblical proof". You say "you only have biblical proof to go on". Read my post again, and if you still don't see my answers to your questions, then ask me again. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 20:19:45 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
oooook. Why did I even bother to write the post, if you were just goin to ignore it all. I say "this is only biblical proof". You say "you only have biblical proof to go on". Read my post again, and if you still don't see my answers to your questions, then ask me again.
"I should say I live in a country that to accepting of sinnful sexual behavior."
Here's a quote from your 1st post in this file. And I ask, who's sin are you talking about? I don't happen to think the same things as you do are sins. I never wanted to be married. I think it's a sorry state of affairs, marrage is. And if it wasn't for this (USA) damn country I never would have had to be (married). And I don't think anyone else should either. But it's their choice, so I wouldn't stop them.
(btw, I've lost count of how many men I've been with while legally married.....so sue me!)
I don't care what someone else does in their own home nor for that matter on the street, such as kiss someone of the same gender. Those are your sins. But I live in this country too and I don't have to live by your beliefs.
And the bible isn't everybodys' proof.
Ok, I went back and read one of the last posts too.
"And Dave, I would give you passages but there is nowhere in the Bible where it says the words "being gay is a sin". But it speaks to "men sleeping with men" as a peversion, in Leviticus, and I thought itwas in Ephesians but I could not find it. But it's in one of Pauls letters."
So, we are using the word peversion instead of sin. Is that the idea.
Whatever! Any word one chooses, to me being 'gay' is neither.
It just bothers me that people have to even talk about sex and gender for someone else when it's not their business. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
| Edited by - Woody D on 04/10/2004 20:35:25 |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 22:16:16 [Permalink]
|
"oooook. Why did I even bother to write the post, if you were just goin to ignore it all. I say "this is only biblical proof". You say "you only have biblical proof to go on". Read my post again, and if you still don't see my answers to your questions, then ask me again."
I was trying to agree with you.... I said that this question was one to understand god, so the only thing anyone has to go off of is the Bible. When trying to understand god, its fine to use the Bible, thats the only source anyone has.
"If god did not change, then why do all the Old Testament have horrible acts, such as stoning the people who work on the sabbath, and the New Testament did not? How else can you explain this change?"
I don't see an answer to this question in your last post. If it is, can you rephrase it, make it a bit more clear? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 05:10:14 [Permalink]
|
| He did not change because that was his plan the whole time. When Jesus died on the cross, we did not need to make sacrifices anymore. We could just ask to be forgiven, and our slates would be clean. So now we don't have to pay harsh penaltys for breaking the law anymore. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
