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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2001 : 14:22:28 [Permalink]
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When a date-rapist slips a drug into a woman's drink that makes said woman almost completely unconscious for the purpose of sex, does nothing violent to the woman other than have intercourse (no hitting, or using things like bottles and knives, etc.), does anyone really think this is about anything other than said rapist wanting a quick and easy sexual gratification?
I don't buy it.
I agree with tergiversant here, that the notion is in danger of being simply a politically correct idea, in which case any government statistics would be suspect.
To Trish: quote:
tergiversant and TD you can never understand the level of violation felt by a woman who has been raped.
I agree, and I sympathize (I hope I have made this clear long before know). A question though, if you don't mind: Does your use of "felt by a woman" indicate that a man who was raped would feel less violated? I'm not challenging this assertion (if it is indeed an assertion), I'm just curious about the effects of rape and if they differ between men and women.
And for those who are new-comers, before you start spouting about how anyone is here trying to 'justify' rape, you need to read the "A Natural History of Rape" thread in this same forum.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 15:18:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
People who think that rape is equated with sex have perverted ideas about sexuality.
Whaaat? Is that a slam on a few of us for wondering if the notion that it is not is more than a notion? I am not sure either way, but every time I hear that it is only a violent act I see statements to the effect of "men could never understand" or "n number of rapes occur every day" and statistics are thrown out based on assumptions of unreported rapes etc.
I don't see how any of this proves that side. To make matters worse, then if someone does question they are labeled perverted?????? This just makes me question the idea that all rapes are about violence even more. But like I said, how can anyone know the intention of or any details of unreported rapes.
I've never deinied that a great deal of rapes are about violence. That is quite clear.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 15:20:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I don't know any men that get off on dominance, do you? What men are you talking about here?
Are you suggesting that I have to know these men personally to know its a fact? And how do you know you dont know any men that get off on domination? Do you think men just walk up to you and say.."hey guess what I like to do"?
I'm just asking what men you are talking about and how you know they exist.
Moreover, it seems that if some men do get off on dominance, that dominance is thus the means to sexual satisfaction, and not and end in and of itself as you would claim. You've thus undermined your own position.
quote:
quote:
Im gonna leave the remark about the "myth of political correctness" alone. Its insulting.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
I think you should prove your remark. Not ask me to prove how insulting I think it is.
I'm asking for you to provide evidence for your claim that a forcible sex act is only about force and not about sex. It seems like a boldly counterintuitive claim to me, so we would need some evidence to support it.
quote:
quote:
Where does the science of psychology conclusively or persuasively show that rape is an act typically motivated by dominance rather than sex? Have you any sources for this claim?
Several sociocultural influences contribute to the incidence and prevalence of sexual assault. These include increased acceptance of interpersonal violence, adversarial stereotypes of male and female relationships, prevalent myths about rape and sex role stereotyping.
Schwartz, L.L. "Sexual Violence Against Women: Prevalence, Consequences, Societal Factors, and Prevention. American Journal of Preventative Medicine. 7 (6). 1991.
This is an ASSERTION. Where is the evidence to support it?
quote:
Assailants are motivated by the wish to humiliate their victims, not for a wish of sexual gratification.
prepared by Rape Crisis Center-May 1986
147 S. Butler St. Madison
More assertion.
quote:
I have edited this to reduce the size, but the information is the same. You can check this out at Rape101.com if you like.
Will do. But I'd rather you posted the evidence |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 15:39:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think that there is a difference of motivation between those that commit a date rape and those that break in somewhere and commit rape or attack someone.
Absolutely. There is an entire spectrum of rape motivation, from those who want only sex and use the easiest means to get it (alcohol, drugs) to those who view violence as part of the act, and everything in between. The question at hand is what motivates most rapists. Assuming that their psychologies follow a unimodal normal distribution, we'd expect most of them to fall in between these two extremes. I'd be very interested in seeing some hard stats from surveys, but I doubt it can be done.
quote:
Please understand the psychological impact upon women who are raped. That's where the concept of dominance comes from. It very much is about the destruction of another individual and less about sexual gratification.
While it is indeed tragic to consider the psychological experience of the rape victim, I doubt that it tells us much (if anything) about the psychological motivations of the rapist himself. This is because I seriously doubt they care one way or another about the victim's mental state.
Would we expect a “typical” rapist to be upset to discover that some particular victim experienced no post-traumatic stress whatsoever (through, say, a fluke case of well-timed head trauma-induced amnesia)?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 15:49:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
While it is indeed tragic to consider the psychological experience of the rape victim, I doubt that it tells us much (if anything) about the psychological motivations of the rapist himself. This is because I seriously doubt they care one way or another about the victim's mental state.
I think this is the mistake being made. People are looking at the effect on the victim and assuming that all effects are intentional.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 15:58:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rape in the legal sense involves much more than penile-vaginal penetration.
There is penile-anal penetration and penile-oral penetration to name a few. Also, it sometimes involves objects such as bottles, knives, etc. Sometimes the men are not erect and sometimes they don't ejaculate. So if a man is not erect and isn't going to ejaculate and is using a bottle to rape a woman, where does the sex come in?
There is much controversy over the legal definition, which varies from state to state. I admit I was working from an older, English common law tradition which originally defined the term in our culture, before the scope of the legal definition was greatly broadened: http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0510-01.htm
quote:
It seems to me that there is a lot of opinion here being thrown about by tergiversant, lacking evidence, with a complete disregard of evidence provided.
What evidence? Thus far I've seen mostly assertion and a few irrelevant statistics. If you've some evidence that rape is most often motivated by violence, let's have it.
quote:
According to the "Bureau of Justice" the one thing that most convicted rapists shared was a sexual trauma in their own childhood's.
Of which BoJ are you speaking? Also, what, if anything, does this prove? What is the psychological conclusion and how is it drawn? Moreover, convicted rapists are not a representative sampling of rapists at large, not by far.
quote:
The California Governors Office of Child Abuse and Domestic Violence" states "Rapists frequently have relationships with spouses or girlfriends and (they go outside of these relationships to) rape to fulfill other needs. "
How frequently and what is their sample?
quote:
This from Rob Hall, author of Rape In America. "The majority of rapists did not rape out of sexual frustration, but for the emotional gratification they received from the act of sexual violence." Please get a copy.
I see his assertion, but what is his
argument? Where did he get his data?
I'll check the library.
quote:
As for rape in the animal kingdom, males mount other males (and sometimes females) as a show of dominance. Mounting is sometimes about sex and sometimes about dominance. And these acts are mutually exclusive.
Prove it. I've seen both at work in canines simultaneously.
quote:
As for date rape, and whatever expectation the guy had, once the woman said no, it is probable that the rape occurred, again, as an act of dominance |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 16:07:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you want more, I can get it. Also, I challenge anyone to come up with evidence that rape is sexualy motivated.
I would think that the sheer frequency of (1) erection (2) penetration and (3) ejeculation in forced sex acts would be prima facie evidence of sexual arousal and thus motivation.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 16:11:35 [Permalink]
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Thanks Kil,
Though I must agree with @tomic on the income level thing.
quote:
As for date rape, and whatever expectation the guy had, once the woman said no, it is probable that the rape occurred, again, as an act of dominance because his ego was hurt and he was angry at being rejected. While he might have wanted to get laid earlier in the evening, it is now about getting even.
froydnslp,
I can agree with this and think that this type of rape should/must be prosecuted. However, the initial motivation is about the sex act itself. Your talking about thought processes in a very short period of time. Usually, these guys don't even realize that what they've done is wrong and think the girl enjoys it. Also, in many cases there is alcohol involved (I think we can all agree that alcohol inhibits higher brain functions). Though it goes from getting sex to getting even or getting what he thinks he has a right to, date rape is terrible, but I think the motivations behind this type of rape are different.
quote:
I agree, and I sympathize (I hope I have made this clear long before know). A question though, if you don't mind: Does your use of "felt by a woman" indicate that a man who was raped would feel less violated? I'm not challenging this assertion (if it is indeed an assertion), I'm just curious about the effects of rape and if they differ between men and women.
Apologies. Never meant to imply that. Just speaking from personal experience is all.
quote:
I think this is the mistake being made. People are looking at the effect on the victim and assuming that all effects are intentional.
With as much *education* as there is going on regarding this issue, you can infer that some of the effects are intentional. I don't know about PTSD being more prevelant in rape victims than in victims of other violent crimes, never cared. I just wanted to know why anyone would violate someone in that manner.
quote:
You know this how? Sounds completely speculative to me.
Can't speak for the individual. But it goes to getting even or being angry over rejection. Again, I know from personal experience.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 09/01/2001 16:25:54 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 16:39:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
With as much *education* as there is going on regarding this issue, you can infer that some of the effects are intentional.
Considering that considerable numbers of Americans can't even read I highly doubt that these education efforts reach everyone, especially those that most need the education. Again, I am sure that a good percentage of rapists do intend to psychological harm. I just argue that it's not most and that many assumptions are being made on this issue.
I also wholeheartedly agree with tergiversant that convicted rapists are not average rapists. To go and interview these individuals and first accept what they say is true and then take that data and apply it to all rapists is making a huge mistake.
If you interview a bunch of Republicans and ask them how good a job they think a Republican president is doing and they say "great" can you assume that all Americans think the president is doing a great job?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 18:35:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't know any men that get off on dominance, do you? What men are you talking about here?
Are you suggesting that I have to know these men personally to know its a fact? And how do you know you dont know any men that get off on domination? Do you think men just walk up to you and say.."hey guess what I like to do"?
I'm just asking what men you are talking about and how you know they exist.
Im talking about the men who commit rape. That is the topic here, isnt it. I know they exist because I belive the statistic I have read from various sources..some of which I have already given you..and there is plenty out there if you really want it.
quote:
Moreover, it seems that if some men do get off on dominance, that dominance is thus the means to sexual satisfaction, and not and end in and of itself as you would claim. You've thus undermined your own position.
I have not undermined my own position. Ever hear of S & M. There is an entire sub-culture of people into domination and submission that does not involve rape in any way. But when that dominance is combined with a sexual assault..you have a rapist.
quote:
Im gonna leave the remark about the "myth of political correctness" alone. Its insulting.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
I think you should prove your remark. Not ask me to prove how insulting I think it is.
I'm asking for you to provide evidence for your claim that a forcible sex act is only about force and not about sex. It seems like a boldly counterintuitive claim to me, so we would need some evidence to support it.
Did you or did you not..suggest that calling a rape an attach of violence and not about sex a "myth of political correctness"? To which I responded that this is insulting, which it is. As for proof, again, I have provided some stats from reliable sources, which you either ignore or reject based on some psuedo-scientific bullshit you have made up. You continually ask for proof..and provide nothing yourself. You dont even bother to provide any data to support your notions of what motivates a rape. You try to use fancy words to cover up the fact that you supply no data. Attaching my data is all you can do? You are insulting me every time you do this.
quote:
Where does the science of psychology conclusively or persuasively show that rape is an act typically motivated by dominance rather than sex? Have you any sources for this claim?
Several sociocultural influences contribute to the incidence and prevalence of sexual assault. These include increased acceptance of interpersonal violence, adversarial stereotypes of male and female relationships, prevalent myths about rape and sex role stereotyping.
Schwartz, L.L. "Sexual Violence Against Women: Prevalence, Consequences, Societal Factors, and Prevention. American Journal of Preventative Medicine. 7 (6). 1991.
This is an ASSERTION. Where is the evidence to support it?
Here you go again. Why dont you look up L.L. Schwartz yourself. Maybe while you are at the library...eh?
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 18:49:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
When a date-rapist slips a drug into a woman's drink that makes said woman almost completely unconscious for the purpose of sex, does nothing violent to the woman other than have intercourse (no hitting, or using things like bottles and knives, etc.), does anyone really think this is about anything other than said rapist wanting a quick and easy sexual gratification?
I don't buy it.
Please tell me how, drugging a woman so you can have intercourse with her is not an act of violence against her. And dominance, by the way. Its pre-meditated. He has to have the drug on him to begin with. However, its still not about sex, because he could have found someone who would have said yes to him. Or perhaps, get a hooker.
quote:
I agree with tergiversant here, that the notion is in danger of being simply a politically correct idea, in which case any government statistics would be suspect.
Not all the stats were supplied by the government. But, why would the government want to lie to us about the motivation of rape? To what end?
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 19:18:15 [Permalink]
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Trish,
When we date, dont we look for a certain type of person that we want to go out with? For instance, some women like to go out with men who work out..others like men who are in certain professions. We also are attracked to certain physical traits, more than others. I know a girl at work who would never date anyone under 6'. Well, I suspect this is true of everyone. A man picks a woman to date based on certain traits as well. Statistics show that a rapist will choose someone he believes he can dominate. This is also true in date-rape. A man will choose someone who he believes he can dominate and will set circumstances up to be in a favorable situation for the attack. Now, I dont know about you, but when I was single and dating, I went on a few blind dates. I also went on dates with men that I may have met at a friends. I dont really
know him, but he seemed nice, so I agreed to go out with him. This is so common. I met my husband through a friend. When I think back on all the virtual stranges I went out with....
But isnt that why we date? To see if we like this person, and perhaps have some kind of future with them?
The rapist makes his choice of who to date based on different factors than a man who is dating you, to get to know you better. In this day and age, its so easy to find a woman who will have sex with you, why would he need to look for one he has to force?
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 19:34:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Please tell me how, drugging a woman so you can have intercourse with her is not an act of violence against her. And dominance, by the way.
We're talking motivation here. Of course you can call it an act of violence if you'd like. But the purpose and motivation of the rapist in this case is sexual gratification, not violence and dominance. That's what we're trying to discuss, right? The motivation, not the outcome.
quote:
Its pre-meditated. He has to have the drug on him to begin with. However, its still not about sex, because he could have found someone who would have said yes to him. Or perhaps, get a hooker.
It's about sex, and sex the easy way. We're talking about people who don't have any empathy with other humans. This, coupled with the very strong libido in the common male, leads to rape. The kooks who get off on violence, and who don't have sexual desire as motivation, are the exception, not the rule.
This is the point of contention, it seems to me.
I say the majority of rapists are looking for sexual gratification, and their lack of empathy allows them to forcefully attempt to get it.
You say the majority of rapists don't have any sexual motivation at all (a ridiculous supposition where men are involved) and merely wish to 'humiliate their victim'.
I say this is nonsense, simply based on my being a man, and having experienced the very powerful physiological desire for sexual gratification.
You must understand this one point: This type of appetite, coupled with a lack of conscience, is the simplest explanation of rape.
quote:
Not all the stats were supplied by the government. But, why would the government want to lie to us about the motivation of rape? To what end?
Why would the government want to be "politically correct"? I think that's self-explanitory.
No one is trying to piss anyone off here. We're just discussing a topic that unfortunately is a highly emotional one, in which people (as seen here) who question the accepted dogma are attacked as "trying to justify rape", or having "perverted ideas about sexuality".
Nothing could be further from the truth.
If you can't discuss this without "getting pissed off", then maybe you shouldn't respond anymore. But I'd rather you just try to control your emotive responses, and try to have a rational discussion.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 19:36:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
In this day and age, its so easy to find a woman who will have sex with you, why would he need to look for one he has to force?
I'm sorry, but this is a silly generalization, and simply not true.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 23:58:39 [Permalink]
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Oookey dokey. There is an objection that some of the material I provided that supports rape not being sexually motivated contradicts itself. Obviously the samplings were not the same and so there are minor deference's in some of the profiling. Such is one of the problems when dealing with "soft science." Thing is, all the studies I read came to the same conclusion. That rape is an act of dominance and violence toward the victim. The sex was always secondary to the act itself.
There is an objection that sampling only prisoners who were convicted of rape is skewed somehow. I don't understand that. Saying that implies that those rapists who are not caught are mostly engaging in a sexual act. Only the ones who are caught are into dominance and violence.
That's a little like saying you cant profile murderers by studying the ones in jail since some murderers are still at large. The fact is that one of the ways murders are caught is by profiling those incarcerated. It is a silly objection.
quote:
If you interview a bunch of Republicans and ask them how good a job they think a Republican president is doing and they say "great" can you assume that all Americans think the president is doing a great job?
Why, no. But you can get an idea of what republicans think. Thanks for helping me make my point.
This thread really heated up when it was stated that all rapes are sexually motivated.
Since that post, Froydnslp, Penyprity and I have all sited studies, books and other outside references to support our position that rape is an act of violence and not sexually motivated. While you can poo poo our sources I think its way past high time you site some sources that support your position. If your intuition, your personal knowledge of male libido, your opinion, your knowledge of evolution and animal husbandry is all you have, then I'm out. As I said, I can collect other sources. Better ones I suppose, if I really take the time. You guys really need to come up with something substantial.
I will post nothing ells on this thread unless I see some sources that support your assertions.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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