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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
 Posted - 08/31/2001 : 12:43:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
But I still think it is a crime of violence and domination … and not about sex. If I have some extra time, I will do a little research and see if there is anything on it.
The idea that rape is not “about sex” is a ridiculous modern myth of the political correctness movement, it has little to do with science. It is blindingly obvious that it is about sex. First off, it involves a sexual act by definition. I suppose then that your claim is more along the lines of motivation for rape behavior.
Well, Of course I am talking about the motivation for rape. No one in their right mind would suggest that the act of rape did not involve sex or sexual contact.
As for men and their erections..power is a major aphrodisiac. So, when some man overpowers a woman, either physically or mentally, that is all they need to obtain the erection they need.
Im gonna leave the remark about the "myth of political correctness" alone. Its insulting.
As for science and rape..well, psychology is a science. The study of rape isnt done in a lab, its done by talking to rapists and their victims. You are dealing with human behavior, not the physical evidence of the crime. Although science does enter into that as well. But my agruments have been about the behavior.
One last note. Since the majority of men do not rape..and since sex, intimacy, or procreation, at its most basic level, is about the propagation of our species, it might be concluded that rape having nothing to do with the propagation of our species, or the intimacy of a loving couple, could be considered a violent act and/or an act of dominance.
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 13:00:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
I lean towards Tokyo's spin on the matter, but that is just intuition without evidence.
Yes, I perhaps should have been more clear that this was not based on any evidence, other than my own experiences as a man.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 13:12:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
quote:
But I still think it is a crime of violence and domination … and not about sex. If I have some extra time, I will do a little research and see if there is anything on it.
The idea that rape is not “about sex” is a ridiculous modern myth of the political correctness movement, it has little to do with science. It is blindingly obvious that it is about sex. First off, it involves a sexual act by definition. I suppose then that your claim is more along the lines of motivation for rape behavior.
As for men and their erections..power is a major aphrodisiac. So, when some man overpowers a woman, either physically or mentally, that is all they need to obtain the
erection they need.
I don't know any men that get off on dominance, do you? What men are you talking about here?
quote:
Im gonna leave the remark about the "myth of political correctness" alone. Its insulting.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
quote:
As for science and rape…well, psychology is a science. The study of rape isn't done in a lab, its done by talking to rapists and their victims. You are dealing with human behavior, not the physical evidence of the crime. Although science does enter into that as well. But my arguments have been about the behavior.
Where does the science of psychology conclusively or persuasively show that rape is an act typically motivated by dominance rather than sex? Have you any sources for this claim?
quote:
One last note. Since the majority of men do not rape..and since sex, intimacy, or procreation, at its most basic level, is about the propagation of our species, it might be concluded that rape having nothing to do with the propagation of our species, or the intimacy of a loving couple, could be considered a violent act and/or an act of dominance.
Your conclusion does not follow. In evolutionary bio, any strategy that increase reproductive fitness may be adopted by some individuals, even if it is only advantageous for a small minority. This is the case for rape behavior in some animals, as well as certain other deviant animal behaviors.
BTW, we went over a lot of this ground in the Natural History of Rape thread earlier. If you've not read through it, you may want to do so.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 13:23:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Rape is domination through the act of sex.
I would disagree, and say rape is the use of domination to aquire sex. If you could experience a male sex drive, this would not be surprising to you. As a male, it is very easy to see how someone who had no empathy for another human could give in to his appetite (which, believe me, is very strong, and is completely sexual in nature, not violent). We see it, and we want it, and we want it bad. Most of us, thankfully, can't even imagine forcing or harming someone to get it.
I must disagree here too. "To aquire sex"? So, you suggest that a non-violent man who is a bit "randy" would do anything to obtain sex? Even to the violation of another person? Once again, the very notion of anything sexual, sends some into wetdream heaven.
The behavior that motivates one to rape has not been proven to be about sex. If you think about it, really think about it, how would you overpower someone to have sex, without a violent act of some sort? And some kill their victims when they are done. Not and act of violence?
I have said this before..but most men dont rape. Sexual urge or not, most men dont think of rape as an acceptable way to relieve the tension of their urges.
I am not suggesting that you are saying that it make rape acceptable, but you are suggesting that its a reason. Its not.
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Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 15:27:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
"To aquire sex"? So, you suggest that a non-violent man who is a bit "randy" would do anything to obtain sex?
I haven't the foggiest idea how you could have come up with this in reading my posts... I suggest no such thing.
quote:
I have said this before..but most men dont rape. Sexual urge or not, most men dont think of rape as an acceptable way to relieve the tension of their urges.
So did I. Right up there where you quoted me saying it.
I said: quote:
Most of us, thankfully, can't even imagine forcing or harming someone to get it.
I still don't understand your point. You sound as if you're disagreeing with me, but then repeating what I said. 
quote:
I am not suggesting that you are saying that it make rape acceptable, but you are suggesting that its a reason. Its not.
What is "it"? Sexual urge? If you don't think sexual urge is the primary motivation of rape (in general, of course; I'm sure you can find specific cases where this is not the case), then you have no understanding of the way the male libido works.
When someone mugs a person for money, do they do it for the money, or because they like beating people up? They may like being violent in some cases, but the primary motivation in most cases is the money. I think it's the same way with rapists.
As tergiversant pointed out, this is just my intuitive opinion (as I have no experience with rape or rapists). I would of course have no problem accepting your contention that sexual desire is not the prime motivation for rape if you can convince me otherwise.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 15:46:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't know any men that get off on dominance, do you? What men are you talking about here?
Are you suggesting that I have to know these men personally to know its a fact? And how do you know you dont know any men that get off on domination? Do you think men just walk up to you and say.."hey guess what I like to do"?
quote:
Im gonna leave the remark about the "myth of political correctness" alone. Its insulting.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
I think you should prove your remark. Not ask me to prove how insulting I think it is.
quote:
As for science and rape…well, psychology is a science. The study of rape isn't done in a lab, its done by talking to rapists and their victims. You are dealing with human behavior, not the physical evidence of the crime. Although science does enter into that as well. But my arguments have been about the behavior.
Where does the science of psychology conclusively or persuasively show that rape is an act typically motivated by dominance rather than sex? Have you any sources for this claim?
From Rape101.com
683,000 forcible rapes occur every year, according to the National Women's Study. This means there are:
59,916 rapes per month
1,871 rapes per day
78 per hour
1.3 per minute
National Victim Center & Crime Victim's Research and Treatment Center. 1992.
It is estimated that only 36% of rapes, 20% of attempted rapes, and 41% of other sexual assaults are reported to the police. Bureau of Justice Statistics Bulletin. National Crime Victimization Survey. United States Department of Justice. Office of Justice Programs. 1996.
Several sociocultural influences contribute to the incidence and prevalence of sexual assault. These include increased acceptance of interpersonal violence, adversarial stereotypes of male and female relationships, prevalent myths about rape and sex role stereotyping.
Schwartz, L.L. "Sexual Violence Against Women: Prevalence, Consequences, Societal Factors, and Prevention. American Journal of Preventative Medicine. 7 (6). 1991.
Assailants are motivated by the wish to humiliate their victims, not for a wish of sexual gratification.
prepared by Rape Crisis Center-May 1986
147 S. Butler St. Madison
I have edited this to reduce the size, but the information is the same. You can check this out at Rape101.com if you like.
quote:
One last note. Since the majority of men do not rape..and since sex, intimacy, or procreation, at its most basic level, is about the propagation of our species, it might be concluded that rape having nothing to do with the propagation of our species, or the intimacy of a loving couple, could be considered a violent act and/or an act of dominance.
Your conclusion does not follow. In evolutionary bio, any strategy that increase reproductive fitness may be adopted by some individuals, even if it is only advantageous for a small minority. This is the case for rape behavior in some animals, as well as certain other deviant animal behaviors.
BTW, we went over a lot of this ground in the |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 20:58:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Rape is domination through the act of sex.
I would disagree, and say rape is the use of domination to aquire sex.... ...Most of us, thankfully, can't even imagine forcing or harming someone to get it.
Well said without my personal bias coloring the issue.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 21:00:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
I should have said "Sex is the an initial motivation and an end goal." I think the arousal necessary for erection and the finality of orgasm demonstrate this fairly well.
We're all terrible at this semantics thing once in a while.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 21:16:47 [Permalink]
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Penyprity,
I think that there is a difference of motivation between those that commit a date rape and those that break in somewhere and commit rape or attack someone.
This is just my opinion regarding the various types of rape.
Date rape may very well have to do more with the expectation of sex in exchange for the evening. This expactation is one promoted in our society. Date rape is a type of rape I would generally not classify with other types of rape. Do not get me wrong, I believe that this type of rape should be prosecuted.
However, there are those who *date rape* through intimidation rather than coersion. This isn't necessarily about expectations. This is also where you begin to cross over into some of the other forms of rape being discussed here.
Intimidation in the sex act is about dominance and humiliation. tergiversant and TD you can never understand the level of violation felt by a woman who has been raped. It goes much deeper than the physical trauma. It goes to how you identify who you are. When that sense of self identity is shattered it is extraordinarily difficult to repair/rebuild the sense of who you are. That is forever altered from the moment of that type of violation.
Please understand the psychological impact upon women who are raped. That's where the concept of dominance comes from. It very much is about the destruction of another individual and less about sexual gratification.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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froydnslp
New Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 01:06:16 [Permalink]
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I feel compelled to add a few things to this debate.
Rape in the legal sense involves much more than penile-vaginal penetration.
There is penile-anal penetration and penile-oral penetration to name a few. Also, it sometimes involves objects such as bottles, knives, etc. Sometimes the men are not erect and sometimes they don't ejaculate. So if a man is not erect and isn't going to ejaculate and is using a bottle to rape a woman, where does the sex come in?
It seems to me that there is a lot of opinion here being thrown about by tergiversant, lacking evidence, with a complete disregard of evidence provided.
According to the "Bureau of Justice" the one thing that most convicted rapists shared was a sexual trauma in their own childhood's.
The California Governors Office of Child Abuse and Domestic Violence" states "Rapists frequently have relationships with spouses or girlfriends and (they go outside of these relationships to) rape to fulfill other needs. "
This from Rob Hall, author of "Rape In America." "The majority of rapists did not rape out of sexual frustration, but for the emotional gratification they received from the act of sexual violence." Please get a copy.
As for rape in the animal kingdom, males mount other males (and sometimes females) as a show of dominance. Mounting is sometimes about sex and sometimes about dominance. And these acts are mutually exclusive.
As for date rape, and whatever expectation the guy had, once the woman said no, it is probable that the rape occurred, again, as an act of dominance because his ego was hurt and he was angry at being rejected. While he might have wanted to get laid earlier in the evening, it is now about getting even.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 05:17:35 [Permalink]
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I can't buy this one size fits all motivation for rape. No, no one has to go out and interview every rapist that ever lived but I get the feeling that some people here continue to focus on serial rapists and the most serious instances. Every instance of it is serious, but I have yet to hear a compelling argument that all or even most rape is not primarily about sex. Quoting the frequency of rape does not do it. Pulling out some instances where sex is not the primary motivation does not do it unless these instances can be shown to be a significant portion of the total. But we don't and never will have a total because estimates are thrown out in varying numbers and appear to be taken to be real numbers. I'm not denying that most rapes probably don't get reported. But good luck coming up with the motivations of rapes that haven't even been reported.
I think it would be a mistake to take the statistics that do exist and assume that the rest of all rapes will fit because the reported rapes would most likely, or so i believe, be the worst cases because they would be too difficult and terrible to hide.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 10:26:46 [Permalink]
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http://www.state.ky.us/agencies/gov/domviol/gisa.htm
GOVERNOR'S OFFICE OF CHILD ABUSE AND DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE SERVICES
GOVERNOR'S OFFICE OF CHILD ABUSE AND DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE SERVICES
Rape and Sexual Assault General Information and Statistics
THE FACTS
Rape is the most underreported violent crime on which national statistics are kept.(1)
Rape victims overwhelmingly are female, and rapists overwhelmingly are male.(1)
Rape victims are young; close to two-thirds of rape victims are under 18.(1)
Only one-quarter to one-third of rape victims are assaulted by a stranger - someone they had never
seen or did not know well.(1)
Rape victims are far more likely to develop (PTSD) post-traumatic stress disorder and depression
than other victims of crime. (1)
Roughly one-third of all rapes take place in daylight, and close to half occur at or near the victim's
home.(1)
At least one of four rape victims have psychological problems more than a year after the assault. (1)
Each year an estimated 500,000 women are the victims of some form of rape or sexual assault.
Altogether, offenders known to the victim accounted for about three-quarters of all rapes and sexual
assaults against women. Strangers commit 18 percent of such assaults. (2)
For every rape reported to police, three of ten rapes go unreported.(3)
CHARACTERISTICS
Rapists frequently have sexual relationships with spouses or girlfriends; they rape to fulfill other
needs.(4)
Rapists do not always confine themselves to one victim or to an area free of bystanders.(4)
Rapists see potential in many different situations. They are quick to take advantage of a situation that
they can turn to their benefit. Stranded individuals are popular targets.(4)
Rapists are sensitive to body language that makes a person appear vulnerable.(4)
The serial rapist selects a location because of familiarity with the area, either through previous
crimes, residing there, or surveillance.(4)
About one-third of repetitive sexual aggressors have experienced some type of sexual trauma during
their formative years.(5)
Studies of convicted rapists, serial rapists, and sex killers have found the majority to be of average or
above average intelligence, obtained the equivalent of a high school diploma or better, married at least
once, and an income well above the poverty level.(6)
The most apparent personality dysfunction of rapists is the inability to form or maintain emotionally
intimate relationships with others.(6)
Observed rapists display little ability to trust, to sympathize or empathize, or to display warmth with
others. Their relationships lacked reciprocity and mutuality.(6)
MYTHS (6) -- This section is excerpted from Rape in America, by Rob Hall (See
Site 6 below).
Sexual assault has nothing to do with sex.
Rape is a form of sexual assault and is an act of aggression. It is a crime of violence that uses sexuality
against the will of the as a weapon. Sexual assault is a sexual act done victim. Rape is a sexual
behavior done primarily to satisfy nonsexual desires.
Rapes usually occur at night in alleys, parks, and the like.
A high percentage of rapes occur in the victim's home, or at the home of someone the victim trusted;
the next most common place of assaults is in a car.
Rape usually involves a black assailant and a white victim.
Victims and assailants are most frequently of the same race.
If a woman leads a man on, or allows him to spend a great deal of money on her,
or changes her mind after having commenced foreplay, the man has a right to sex.
Sexual assault is a forced sexual act done without consent of the victim. Without
consent it is a crime, regardless of the previous actions of the victim or the assailant.
If there was no semen present, there was no rape.
In cases in which the assault was interrupted by external factors prior to the rapist having orgasm, there
would not be semen present.
The sexual assailant is most often a stranger.
80 percent of all sexual assailants are known to the victim.
A rapist is a psychopath and looks like one.
Rapists come from all walks of life, frequently have families, and include clergy, policemen, teachers,
and others who are generally respected a "model citizens."
The rapist is most frequently a "sex starved" pervert.
The majority of convicted rapists did not rape out of sexual frustration, but for the emotional
gratification they received from the act of sexual violence.
A rapist is a man who cannot control his sexual desires.
Rape is most often a premeditated crime. It is an act of aggression and sexual violence, not an
expression of sexual desire.
A husband cannot be found guilty of raping his wife.
As of the fall 1993, all 50 states had removed the automatic "spousal exemption" from their laws on
rape and sexual assault.
The victim was "asking for it" by the manner in which she was dressed, by
flirting, or by where she was walking or spending time.
The attitude that the victim "asked for it" takes the responsibility for the attack away from the assailant,
shifting it to the victim. No one asks to be hurt, and no one has the right to force another person to
engage in sex, regardless of circumstances or the victim's prior actions.
Rape only happens to certain kinds of women.
Rape happens to women of all ages. Victims of sexual assault come from all races and socioeconomic,
ethnic, and religious groups.
No one would rape an "unattractive" woman; rape only happens to young, "sexy"
women.
Victims are chosen on the basis of their vulnerability, not their physical appearance. Rape victims are of
all physical types, appearances, and ages.
No woman can be raped against her will; it is physically impossible to rape a
woman who does not want to be raped.
Rape is most frequently committed through use of force or threat of force. Rape is not sex; it is
physical assault. Any individual, male or female, can be physically overcome by a larger and stronger
assailant.
A male cannot be raped.
The rape of males is believed to be even more underreported than that of females. Male children are
more likely to be assaulted by heterosexual men than by women or homosexual men. Very young
males are most likely to be assaulted by family members or caretakers, young teenagers by authority
figures, and young adult males by peers or older adults.
Women enjoy being raped.
Rape by its very nature is an unwanted act of violence against both the body and mind of the victim. It
violates and destroys the victim's normal perception of and assumption about her world; highly valued
beliefs of trust and safety are shattered. The psychological damage of rape lasts long after the physical
damage has healed.
Sources
(1) (U.S. Department of Justice, Preventing Violence Against Women. Washington, D.C.; June 1995;
13-15.)
(2) (U.S. Department of Justice, Violence Against Women: Estimat |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 13:20:07 [Permalink]
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OK, Kil....seen this before. If I believed everything the government threw out I would say "fine" but the government does not always provide factual information. Those where a lot of stats but how were those arrived at and, most importantly, was the methos scientific?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 13:27:39 [Permalink]
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I also noticed that at the very top of your last post it said rapists had higher than normal incomes and then at the bottom it said they were usually poor? What's with that? Covering all bases?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 13:33:12 [Permalink]
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Kil:
Thank you for taking the time to find your above information.
People who think that rape is equated with sex have perverted ideas about sexuality. Incidentally, males can be raped also, so not all rape is directed against females.
Thanks!
ljbrs 
Perfection Is a State of Growth... |
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