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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2001 : 22:38:47 [Permalink]
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Zandermann: (Sorry Dog_Ed, but evolution is not repugnant to all Christians...only the fundamentalists.)
You are right. I apologize to those Christians, I believe the majority of them, who rationally consider evolution and reject or accept it on the evidence. I'll call the more close-minded minority FEBA (Fundamentalist/Evangelical/Born Again) Christians and hope not to step on any toes I don't mean to.
Slater: OK, I've got the historical connection through my thick skull. I had never stopped to ponder the clash of Jeffersonian-type freethinking with the 18th-century Protestant majority. It makes a lot of sense.
I'd also agree that the FEBA Christian movement is all about control. Science in general and evolution in particular challenge that control because they directly question basic Biblical teachings, and the Bible is the ultimate *official* justification for control of believers. (I recently heard a spot on Air 1, a FEBA Christian radio station, counseling listeners to simply turn away from anything that might shake their faith in Scripture, and keep any doubt from entering their minds by just not thinking those thoughts. When an organization overtly asks members to cede control of their minds then yes, the fundamental issue is control!)
But. If there was not a militant FEBA Christian movement at this time in the USA, and if there was not a great deal of money to be made from pushing a FEBA Christian agenda, then I doubt creationism would be so highly visible. It is ultimately about control (and money), but the hotpoint issues of creationism, abortion, and religious instruction are not arbitrary--they are zones of conflict between the FEBA Christian religion and the culture in which it finds itself.
And that is why I would pin the visibility of creationism in the USA and its relatively low profile in, say, Germany, at least partly on the activity of FEBA Christian organizations in the USA compared to the relatively low profile of such groups in Germany. And of course the social history you've ably outlined gives the reasons why FEBA Christianity has indeed become so active in the USA.
Ya know, I think the Taliban has an analogous problem--fundamentalist Muslim faith clashes with aspects of the prevailing/developing culture just as does FEBA Christianity. Different hotpoints (women's rights and freedom of belief spring to mind) but still a religious/secular misfit that will have to work itself out.
Hmmm. I'm about to spin another thread... ;-)
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 14:42:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have heard this same argument with respect to the abortion/choice issue. Those who want to limit a woman's right to an abortion are in fact trying to control women's sexuality. Unwanted pregnancy is a just punishment for promiscuity in their eyes. Just a guess but I think that the vast majority of Creationists are likely also against women's choice on abortion.
It's not just that they are opposed to abortions. This applies to some mainstream religions also (catholicism), many (most) pro-lifers are also opposed to the concept of birth control. The thinking is that abstinence is the only form of birth control that should be practiced. (Biblical morality?) They oppose the concept of making birth control measures available to our young people - as the ready availablity will cause them to want and think about sex all the time. This is in a way also a form of control over thoughts (no sex) and physical relationships/sanctifying them and it is a form of misogyny. Forcing women to *be fruitful and multiply* in an age when women no longer nurse their children for long periods of time - thus becoming ready to have another child sooner. Tho, La Leche League uses some coersive tactics to get women to breast feed for longer periods. This not only ties women to the home longer, when women only have 6 weeks maternity leave in many cases, but is also used as a form of control. Only this one has had disasterous results, many children have been malnurished because of this practice and many have died as a consequence. The attacks against women by *religious* movements are far from limited to the fringe.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 15:51:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
This applies to some mainstream religions also (catholicism)
I agree. However, most Catholics in modern industrialized countries do not hold the same view of abortion and birth control as the hierarchy. They don't take the Pope that seriously (spoken from experience). Unfortunately, most Catholics in 3rd world nations do take seriously the church's stand on these issues.
Greg.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 16:33:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
OK, I've got the historical connection through my thick skull. I had never stopped to ponder the clash of Jeffersonian-type freethinking with the 18th-century Protestant majority. It makes a lot of sense.
Jefferson and his lot (and today's mainline liberal Protestants) are free to engage in higher criticism of Biblical writings and precepts, whereas the FEBA's stick to Sola Scriptura. This is why they must insist on creationism, it all goes back to their having a sole written source of authority and a literalistic hermaneutical scheme.
quote:
I'd also agree that the FEBA Christian movement is all about control. Science in general and evolution in particular challenge that control because they directly question basic Biblical teachings, and the Bible is the ultimate *official* justification for control of believers. (I recently heard a spot on Air 1, a FEBA Christian radio station, counseling listeners to simply turn away from anything that might shake their faith in Scripture, and keep any doubt from entering their minds by just not thinking those thoughts. When an organization overtly asks members to cede control of their minds then yes, the fundamental issue is control!)
First and foremost it is about soul-winning, saving people from H-E-double hockey sticks. Mental control is only a means to that end.
quote:
But. If there was not a militant FEBA Christian movement at this time in the USA, and if there was not a great deal of money to be made from pushing a FEBA Christian agenda, then I doubt creationism would be so highly visible. It is ultimately about control (and money), but the hotpoint issues of creationism, abortion, and religious instruction are not arbitrary--they are zones of conflict between the FEBA Christian religion and the culture in which it finds itself.
And that is why I would pin the visibility of creationism in the USA and its relatively low profile in, say, Germany, at least partly on the activity of FEBA Christian organizations in the USA compared to the relatively low profile of such groups in Germany. And of course the social history you've ably outlined gives the reasons why FEBA Christianity has indeed become so active in the USA.
I agree, but what is the socio-historical reason the U.S. has so many FEBA-type xians relative to other historically Christian nations?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 17:47:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree, but what is the socio-historical reason the U.S. has so many FEBA-type xians relative to other historically Christian nations?
I think, as Slater said above, the other nations wouldn't have them and booted them out. I just wish we had that option 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 17:51:29 [Permalink]
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Yeah, but then they're a pain in the butt to some other country. At least here, they have plenty of room to preach. In the cornfields of Nebraska. Where no one can hear them but themselves.
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 18:09:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
(me): Sorry Dog_Ed, but evolution is not repugnant to all Christians...only the fundamentalists.
You are right. I apologize to those Christians, I believe the majority of them, who rationally consider evolution and reject or accept it on the evidence. I'll call the more close-minded minority FEBA (Fundamentalist/Evangelical/Born Again) Christians and hope not to step on any toes I don't mean to. ...
Coming back to my post a day later, I think that maybe I sounded 'snippier' to you than I intended.
There are other posters here who appear to feel that any "believer" is an apt target for condescension and smugness. I think I was reacting to that perception, rather than to your words; I apologize.
I appreciate your narrowing your subsequent post to FEBAs (a category into which, I daresay, none of the regulars here fall).quote:
... I'd also agree that the FEBA Christian movement is all about control. ...I recently heard a spot on Air 1, a FEBA Christian radio station, counseling listeners to simply turn away from anything that might shake their faith in Scripture, and keep any doubt from entering their minds by just not thinking those thoughts. When an organization overtly asks members to cede control of their minds then yes, the fundamental issue is control! ...
Add to that the fact that the interpretation of those Scriptures is handed down from hierarchy, and the situation becomes even worse.
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 18:11:37 [Permalink]
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Irony alert.
Because of the freedoms we enjoy in the US, these hard-core fundies can believe as they wish, rant and rave, and preach their little hearts out. I've noticed one the first things they'd like to do is take these same freedoms away from the rest of us.
Lisa
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 19:35:04 [Permalink]
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Lisa, I think this was also part of Slater's point, ie that the split nature of a government founded at least in part by freethinkers to govern a strongly religious public had to implement a really powerful disconnect between church and state. One result, lo these many years later, is that the FEBA Christians have more freedom than they might in some other countries.
Zandermann, no need to apologize, for goodness sake. I was writing sloppily and I'm very glad indeed you pointed it out to me.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2001 : 02:58:00 [Permalink]
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Dog_Ed wrote:
quote:
One result, lo these many years later, is that the FEBA Christians have more freedom than they might in some other countries.
I am do not think that it is a question of freedom, we have quite lot of sects in Europe. I think that if FEBA Christians are inexistant (at least I never heard of them) is that their ideas are just too incompatible with our "culture".
I do not know about the rest of europe, but in France at least you can have problems with the law only for incitation to violence or racism and if you violate private life.
Seb |
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Kristin
Skeptic Friend
Canada
84 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2001 : 05:51:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
They oppose the concept of making birth control measures available to our young people - as the ready availablity will cause them to want and think about sex all the time.
I think I speak for a great portion of 'young people' when I say that BREATHING makes us want and think about sex all the time. That doesn't mean we should outlaw breathing, now does it? ( I realize this was not your opinion, Trish ) It also does not mean that thinking about/wanting is equal to promiscuity.
quote:
This not only ties women to the home longer, when women only have 6 weeks maternity leave in many cases, but is also used as a form of control.
my coworkers and I were discussing this the other day, the fact that the US only gives 6 weeks maternity leave, which I think is rather preposterous. Then again, I haven't given birth yet. In Canada, there is a 12 month parental leave granted, which can be taken in full by one parent (presumptably Mommie) or taken in part by both parents. Only makes sense to me.
quote:
Ya know, I think the Taliban has an analogous problem--fundamentalist Muslim faith clashes with aspects of the prevailing/developing culture just as does FEBA Christianity. Different hotpoints (women's rights and freedom of belief spring to mind) but still a religious/secular misfit that will have to work itself out.
Hmm. I don't think comparing the Taliban to the Fundies is really fair to the fundies. When's the last time they drenched a woman in gasoline and set her on fire for walking down the street without a male family member?
Maybe saying that the Taliban are an extremist example of fundamental mindset would be more accurate.
But I do very much agree that when you ask your 'followers' not to think in order to maintain their faith, you are definately trying to exert mind control.
Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement. |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2001 : 15:40:39 [Permalink]
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Seb: (Not a question of more or less religious freedom): Yeah, you're right. *suddenly aware that he has backed out onto a limb, Dog_Ed tries to scramble back* Obviously France and England are not pressure cookers of religious oppression. Hmmm...maybe it's more that the USA, right from its formation, set up an implicit conflict between freethinking progressives and religious fundamentalists?
Or maybe it's something in the air or the water that makes Reverend Billy-Bob Clodhopper think that the Bible is perfectly factual and that God planted fossils just to fool credulous mankind. Whatya think?
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes"
Edited by - Dog_Ed on 08/23/2001 15:42:17 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2001 : 16:35:25 [Permalink]
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Seb, not to tell you your own history but the reason you guys don't have FEBA Christians is because your king kicked them out.
The reason you enjoy religious freedom now is because you kicked the king out in turn.(good work)
When all of these strange religious types left Europe there was only one place to go.
Here.
If the French revolution had happened earlier we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Does the name Huguenot ring any bells?
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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