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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 06/25/2004 : 06:01:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
I'm not trying to better myself, just unshakably stand for what "I" believe in, courtesy of my 'own free will.'
If you by 'own free will' choose not to better yourself, your mind will grow as healthy as a stagnant pool of water.
Believe me or not, but I don't want that to happen.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 12:59:18 [Permalink]
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DUDE-- "Explain to me how we can have free will when we are created by an omnipotent and omnicient creator."--
OK....Here's where I back up Verich, and say a little more clearly what he was trieing to say, because it's what I believe too.
More and more, my whole faith is focused on grace. Yes God is omnipotent, and omnicient, so he does not have to give us free will. He can if he want's to, control everything. BUT....by his grace he gave us rational thoughts. We can make decisions. Not good decisions many times, but nonetheless decisions.
It is made clear that Jesus could have taken himself off the cross, (though the physical suffering was not the main part of his suffering) but by his grace he didn't.
Same here. He could have controlled everything, and still can interject when he see's fit. But for the most part, he gave us the right to choose.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 16:13:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ethan
Verich, <snip> I would agree with you on a lot of points, but you really need to take the time to listen to other people when they present a valid argument.
Ethan, Verlch wouldn't know a valid argument even if it grew fangs and bit him in the ass. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 06/25/2004 16:24:56 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 16:21:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
that's why they call me a dsylexic genuis!! I
Ethan. I haven't called Verlch a dyslexic genius. I can't recall reading anyone else here saying it either. Verlch is full of "exaggerated" statements, so don't take his word for it. I would demand a link to that post if, indeed, there ever was one. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 16:34:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
... grace ... omnipotent ... omnicient ...
Before we go too far down this path, how about a working definition of these three words, C88. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 16:38:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Creation88:
BUT....by his grace he gave us rational thoughts. We can make decisions. Not good decisions many times, but nonetheless decisions.
So, God doesn't know everything after all? God chose not to know everything?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 17:46:39 [Permalink]
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exactly Kil, if god is truly omnipotent then we have no free will. If we have free will, then god isn't omnipotent.... and if that is the case, why would we care about anything he has to say? He'd be just another person.
The whole thing about grace is just a feeble attempt to rationalize the paradox of free will and an omnipotent creator. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 19:19:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
I'm not trying to better myself, just unshakably stand for what "I" believe in, courtesy of my 'own free will.'
If you by 'own free will' choose not to better yourself, your mind will grow as healthy as a stagnant pool of water.
Believe me or not, but I don't want that to happen.
Are you saying I'm trying to better myself over everyone? Blasted Barnacles....for cryin' out loud why do radical evolutions try and cause strife and discord with people that choose to believe in God. I am humbeling myself. I worship my creator and I stand for him till' death. Would you do that for evolution? Well as I sit here I would die for my beliefs, would you? |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 21:11:56 [Permalink]
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ConsequentAtheist wrote:quote:
Rubbish. It makes the concept entirely 'unclear' to the point of being meaningless.
How so? It's clear to me. Why is it unclear to you? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 21:22:09 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
I am humbeling myself.
Not here, you're not. You're full of spit and vinegar, and a know-it-all to boot. Even when you admit to ignorance - as you did regarding evolutionary theory - you still think you know the right thing to do about it. Being humble is a full-time job, not something which is reserved just for God. Go read the Bible, since you haven't, much.quote:
I worship my creator and I stand for him till' death. Would you do that for evolution? Well as I sit here I would die for my beliefs, would you?
Why would anyone do that? The theory of evolution is not a god. There's no "eternal punishment" for renouncing evolution, which is the only reason one would die for Christ. If some church decides to start killing people who profess an understanding of evolution, you'll see a whole lot of public turncoats (but private researchers). It's not nearly as important to us as your pathetic bully of a God is to you, even if it is the cornerstone of the science of biology. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 05:13:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
I'm not trying to better myself, just unshakably stand for what "I" believe in, courtesy of my 'own free will.'
If you by 'own free will' choose not to better yourself, your mind will grow as healthy as a stagnant pool of water.
Believe me or not, but I don't want that to happen.
Are you saying I'm trying to better myself over everyone?
That is your communication-dysfunction?
I said: if you are not trying to improve yourself in any way, (as you said yourself), compared to yourself at present time, then the result will be that your mental capacity will diminish and/or become unhealthy.
I can't think of anyone else than you who would misread what I wrote. I myself thought it pretty clear. If anyone disagrees, let me know how I can adjust my reading and writing skills. Because I am one of those "radical evolutionists" that believe that I can become better than I am today.
quote:
Blasted Barnacles....for cryin' out loud why do radical evolutions try and cause strife and discord with people that choose to believe in God.
We do not try to cause discord. We are trying to open your ears so that you can hear the discord you yourself are producing whenever you try to say something about your Christian faith.
quote:
I am humbeling myself.
Bullshit!
quote:
I worship my creator and I stand for him till' death.
It is your right to do so, as long as your actions in no way harms anyone else, or intrude on other people's liberties.
quote:
Would you do that for evolution?
Well as I sit here I would die for my beliefs, would you?
No... Because I don't have to.
Only a fool would die for his beliefs, because dying for them doesn't prove anything other than you are willing to die for what you believe in. I wouldn't trust someone with a death wish. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 10:43:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
No... Because I don't have to.
Only a fool would die for his beliefs, because dying for them doesn't prove anything other than you are willing to die for what you believe in. I wouldn't trust someone with a death wish.
And again, how many evolutions have been burned at the stake for their beliefs? 6 million Jews (Gods people) got destroyed by Hitler. Do you think the Jews had a choice? The world turned its back on them!!!
And someday I think they are going to kill those who believe in God again, in this century!!!
How many Christians have been destroyed for believing in the bible? There is without a doubt somthing there, spiritually in this wicked world.
You seem way too blinded by your own theories to see it...or blinded by hate for something you don't understand!!!!
http://www.fr-d-serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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| Edited by - verlch on 06/26/2004 10:45:24 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 18:10:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
And again, how many evolutions have been burned at the stake for their beliefs?
I don't know... Do you have any numbers? (references please)
quote:
6 million Jews (Gods people) got destroyed by Hitler.
... and Hitler was a Catholic. A person who believed in Jesus Christ.
quote:
And someday I think they are going to kill those who believe in God again, in this century!!!
If it would mean getting rid of people like you? ... hmm, what a moral dilemma, tempting. No, I would not condone such an action. I believe everyone has the right to think and believe what they want (unless it's harmful to others), including you Verlch, regardless of my opinion of you.
quote:
How many Christians have been destroyed for believing in the bible?
How many people have been burned at the stake by Christians for not conforming to established dogma?
A monk named Bruno got burnt at the stake for saying that there are planets around other suns, and that there is probably other living beings there.
quote:
You seem way too blinded by your own theories to see it...or blinded by hate for something you don't understand!!!!
You are attacking Evolution because your scared of the implications of it! You're not blind, because blind people have a good excuse for not seeing. You are looking away, afraid of looking. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 18:36:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
... and Hitler was a Catholic. A person who believed in Jesus Christ.
Hitler was part Jewish, I know nothing of him being Catholic. Are all Catholics suppose to be perfect? Do Christians not have free will because they read the bible and are suppose to be perfect in a world you don't have to be perfect in it?
I can start a war today and say in the 'name of Darwin' I am going to kill all the men in your country and enslave the woman and children. Does it necessarily mean I actually believe in Evolution?
Others where burned at the stake because the said the earth was round only 400 years ago. Sounds like Eygpt was farthur ahead of science than these guys...that was only .0000000000000112354 of time ago! If the earth is 5 billion years old!!!
So in Evolution when you evolve to the stars do ever die then too!!! It seems like alot of work? |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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