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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
 Posted - 07/08/2004 : 18:30:08 [Permalink]
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| If you can't respond specifically to my points, ethan, I'd appreciate it if you refrain from making personal attacks and labeling me. You've never met me, and you don't know me at all. And labeling me doesn't further your argument one bit. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 06:10:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ethan
well renae i think by that last post it's pretty obvious that you're a bit disillusioned, broad, judgemental, and maybe even deceiving yourself about reality a little. i didn't really read too much that made me even want to respond.
Renae clearly states that many "Crisis pregnancy centers" engage in conduct which is questionable such as listing under the abortion heading in the yellow pages. She also contends that there are some pregnancies which can cause the death of the mother and that "crisis pregnancy centers" which oppose abortions at all costs are not providing public health services or true counseling if they do not state up front that the oppose abortions at all costs. This assessment leads her to contend that some "crisis pregnancy centers" act in an unethical and sneaky way.
She has provided links for you to support her contentions. You have responded by attacking the person and not the points presented. This does nothing to further your position. I have supplied links to information which directly refuted your original position from both the CDC concerning abortion and Planned Parenthood concerning the revealation of post partum depression.
At this point, you have done nothing to address these points except focus on Renae as someone you can belittle because she oppose an organization which you have some emotional investment in.
Now for a personal story. A few years ago, a friend of mine had a daughter who became pregnant. She had diabetes and the doctor had advised her not to get pregnant as it would endanger her life. She got pregnant anyway and refused medical advice to get an abortion. She died in the sixth month of her pregnancy due to diabetes. She was 18 years old. The fetus did not survive.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 18:56:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ethan
well renae i think by that last post it's pretty obvious that you're a bit disillusioned, broad, judgemental, and maybe even deceiving yourself about reality a little. i didn't really read too much that made me even want to respond.
Sad little fella.... and prettymuch typical of the fundie mindset.
Ethan, respond to statements presented.... try (yes, it's difficult) not to insult people.
How about defending your original position that abortion causes women to have some syndrome.... Yes, I know people here pretty much debunked your fantasy, but I'm sure there is more to the debate if you want to find it.
Or maybe read and respond to any of the statements supported by linked info....
Just be warned that your quite possibly out of your league if you chose to start insulting people  |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 11:20:43 [Permalink]
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http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/post_abortion_syndrome_character.asp
Here is some information I found on PAS. I think that some women experience PAS and other ailments after an abortion, but as Renae pointed out women can experience depression after childbirth. Both are real problems. I don't think this is a very legitimate argument aginst abortion. Any argument against abortion that does not include God cannot be legitimate. If there is no moral truth, then how can anyone say you are wrong with your decisions.
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| Edited by - Robb on 07/12/2004 14:51:58 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 22:14:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Any argument against abortion that does not include God cannot be legitimate.
So.... now god says abortion is wrong? Where, exactly, does he say that? Where, exactly, does god even define what constitutes life? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 06:30:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Any argument against abortion that does not include God cannot be legitimate.
So.... now god says abortion is wrong? Where, exactly, does he say that? Where, exactly, does god even define what constitutes life?
If you want to discuss what the Bible says about life, we can, but probably in a new thread or find an old one. I brought it up because I don't think that having psychological problems of this sort after an abortion is a strong enough argument against abortion. The abortion issue has to do with the question of when does life begin, and for Christians God answers that question. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 08:41:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Any argument against abortion that does not include God cannot be legitimate.
So.... now god says abortion is wrong? Where, exactly, does he say that? Where, exactly, does god even define what constitutes life?
If you want to discuss what the Bible says about life, we can, but probably in a new thread or find an old one. I brought it up because I don't think that having psychological problems of this sort after an abortion is a strong enough argument against abortion. The abortion issue has to do with the question of when does life begin, and for Christians God answers that question.
At this point, I cannot agree with your premise. Morality flows from one's personal philosphy. There are some atheists who do not agree with abortion on a moral basis. Just having the existance of a Supreme Being within one's personal philosophy does not answer questions. There are quite a few Christians who do not oppose abortions. In these cases, it is the interpretation that they have from reading their own Bible and application of their particular faith which brings them to a different conclusion than yours.
The Bible does make cryptic references to a philosophy concerning life. Some Christians have extrapolated these references and married them with their own opinions on when they think life begins to form their objections against abortion. The question of when life begins has been answered through Papal edicts and pronouncements of Reverends, not through direct statements in the Bible.
Answers in the Bible tend to be in the eye of the reader. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 08:42:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Robb:
The abortion issue has to do with the question of when does life begin, and for Christians God answers that question.
Good point. So Christians who believe that there is biblical support against abortion can choose not to have one. What we can't let happen is a law that supports one religious point of view. If we allow those Christians who are against abortion to dictate to others, by way of law, that they can't have an abortion, we have taken a step toward establishing a theocracy... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 15:29:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
What we can't let happen is a law that supports one religious point of view. If we allow those Christians who are against abortion to dictate to others, by way of law, that they can't have an abortion, we have taken a step toward establishing a theocracy...
I respect your point of view, but Christians have every right to petition the government about abortion laws. Being anti-abortion is not strictly a Christian point of view. Murder and stealing are forbidden by the Bible as well as by our national laws. I don't think a step toward a theocracy has been made simply because Christians believe they are wrong also. If congress passed a law that made everybody take communion on Sunday, then I could see your point, since communion is strictly a Christian belief.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 17:22:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Me: What we can't let happen is a law that supports one religious point of view. If we allow those Christians who are against abortion to dictate to others, by way of law, that they can't have an abortion, we have taken a step toward establishing a theocracy...
Robb responds:
quote:
I respect your point of view, but Christians have every right to petition the government about abortion laws. Being anti-abortion is not strictly a Christian point of view.
However, in an earlier post Robb says this:
quote:
Any argument against abortion that does not include God cannot be legitimate.
So, what am I supposed to make of this? We both know that by far the largest group opposing abortion are Christians. Not all Christians, but Christians nonetheless. Throw in some objections to abortion from a handful of Jews and even some Atheists (who "cannot have a legitimate argument against abortion") and you think this exempts your position from being theocratic?
And you say:
quote:
Murder and stealing are forbidden by the Bible as well as by our national laws.
As if that matters. Guess what? Most people oppose murder or stealing regardless of what beliefs they have in matters of faith. Why? Because murder and stealing are counter productive. As a habit, they don't make for a very healthy culture. Now, you can say that the laws against murder and stealing originated in the Bible. But we both know that isn't true. Also, there are many Buddhist countries. They embrace an atheistic religion and they pretty much frown on murder and stealing too. The bible doesn't have a corner on common sense.
We are, however, divided on the question of abortion, and the oppositions case is mostly being made on religious grounds. Therefore, outlawing abortion based on what you have called the "only legitimate argument against abortion," would be a step toward a theocracy, unless you can convince the rest of us that life begins at conception... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 17:30:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
The abortion issue has to do with the question of when does life begin, and for Christians God answers that question.
Well, the answer should be short enough to fit into a sentence. And I think it's apropriate to this topic. So, lets hear the answer of when life begins, and the supporting biblical reference.
It would look something like:
Life begins when <insert phrase here>. Per bible passage xxxxx/n:nn |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 03:47:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
What we can't let happen is a law that supports one religious point of view. If we allow those Christians who are against abortion to dictate to others, by way of law, that they can't have an abortion, we have taken a step toward establishing a theocracy...
I respect your point of view, but Christians have every right to petition the government about abortion laws. Being anti-abortion is not strictly a Christian point of view.
<snip>
... I don't think a step toward a theocracy has been made simply because Christians believe they are wrong also.
Then why do Christians use religiously founded arguments for banning abortion? Using religious arguments for passing a law that could be passed using secular arguments is theocratic by the definition as I know it. If you disagree, please educate me, I could be wrong. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2004 : 18:53:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Any argument against abortion that does not include God cannot be legitimate.
So.... now god says abortion is wrong? Where, exactly, does he say that? Where, exactly, does god even define what constitutes life?
If you want to discuss what the Bible says about life, we can, but probably in a new thread or find an old one. I brought it up because I don't think that having psychological problems of this sort after an abortion is a strong enough argument against abortion. The abortion issue has to do with the question of when does life begin, and for Christians God answers that question.
The Council at Vienne in 1312 stated that abortion was acceptable to Canonical Law (this is prior to the Protestant Reformation) as long as the fetus did not look human. It was in 1869 I believe, when a Jesuit priest looked at sperm through a microscope and declared a 'fully formed human' in the sperm. This is a concept that we now know to be patently false since the sperm only contains 1/2 the genetic material to create life. Abortion was an issue left to the woman by many state laws as long as the abortion was preformed prior to quickening. The newly forming AMA took abortion as an issue because it was easy for them to say that only a doctor could determine whether 'quickening' had occured. This left the interpretation open, it was in the ensuing years that abortion became less socially acceptable - and led many states to declaring abortion illegal. Roe v Wade simply brought the concept from a private issue to a public issue and guaranteed the woman the right to make the choice.
I would also check on what Aquinas has to say about abortion. IIRC, his writings were consulted on the issue at the Council of Vienne. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2004 : 19:44:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
The newly forming AMA took abortion as an issue because it was easy for them to say that only a doctor could determine whether 'quickening' had occured.
The AMA had legitimate concerns about the procedure at the time they were pushing for it to be made illegal. Issues concerning the safety of the patient, not the morality of the procedure. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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