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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2004 : 22:27:14 [Permalink]
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Agreed Dude. But it was their pet issue, and the reasons given were that only a doctor could determine whether quickening had occured. Even the AMA admitted that they turned it into an issue when they were first being formed. It was an easily usurped position for them. Admittedly, the AMA was at the forefront of allowing choice on the issue, again, for the same reason you brought up, safety of the patient.
The AMA wasn't pushing for making abortion illegal, they were pushing for the concept that a doctor had to determine whether or not 'quickening' had occurred. That it was eventually made illegal was more the moral results of that silly Jesuit that saw a fully formed human in the sperm. Recall, that during this time the sufferage movement was beginning, women weren't keeping their place, contraception was being brought forward as necessary knowledge for women to prevent many 'social ills' of the time. That abortion was brought up in a public fora only exacerbated the situation. That's more likely why many states passed legislation against abortion than anything to do with the overt actions of the AMA. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 10:52:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Well, the answer should be short enough to fit into a sentence. And I think it's apropriate to this topic. So, lets hear the answer of when life begins, and the supporting biblical reference.
It would look something like:
Life begins when <insert phrase here>. Per bible passage xxxxx/n:nn
I have taken some time to look at your question of when the bible says life begins. It has been a while since my last post. I did not give up on this topic but my second daughter was born on the 15th and did not have time to respond. It was a good time for me to reflect on life and what God says about it.
I was wrong in thinking that life begins at conception. When the bible was written people thought that the mans sperm was like a seed and was planted in the woman to grow. The idea of conception as we know it today from scientific discovery postdates the bible. I assume you agree the bible teaches God is the creator of all life. It also teaches that God created you before conception. Your life began before your conception and your life's purpose was formed as well in the mind of God. This is shown in Jeremiah 1:5.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
The notion of conception as related to a sperm and an egg does not come up in the bible. This is the biblical view of conception, when God conceives of someone or something.
Psalm 139
And that my soul knows very well.
15My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
This indicates that life does not begin in the uterus, but in a “secret” place in God's own mind before conception. The idea that the bible teaches life begins at conception is biblically inaccurate.
Let me know if you agree that this is what the bible teaches.
On a personal note, as I watched my daughter being born I could not grasp that she was the product of evolution. That a complex birth process and body could have resulted from a simple form of life. Have any of you that believe in evolution had this thought before? That life just seems to complicated for evolution to have happened?
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 11:09:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
On a personal note, as I watched my daughter being born I could not grasp that she was the product of evolution. That a complex birth process and body could have resulted from a simple form of life. Have any of you that believe in evolution had this thought before? That life just seems to complicated for evolution to have happened?
Congratulations with the birth of your daughter!
To answer your question. I have never had the thought that life seems to complicated for evolution to have happened. I have had the thought that it is wonderfull how such a simple process can give rise to such complex structures and such beautifull diversity in nature. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 11:17:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Then why do Christians use religiously founded arguments for banning abortion? Using religious arguments for passing a law that could be passed using secular arguments is theocratic by the definition as I know it. If you disagree, please educate me, I could be wrong.
I do wish that abortion was illegal, but more importantly I wish that people have respect for God's creation out of love for him. I also know that making laws soley based on the Bible is unconstitutional and is theocratic. I have changed my mind on this issue thanks partly to your comments. The Bible shows that Jesus wants us to change peoples hearts not societies laws. Jesus did not try to form a new government movement to bring about change, He tried to change peoples hearts one by one. The OT is full of laws that people cannot keep without God's love. This is what Christians are called to do also. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 11:27:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Congratulations with the birth of your daughter!
Thank you
quote:
To answer your question. I have never had the thought that life seems to complicated for evolution to have happened. I have had the thought that it is wonderfull how such a simple process can give rise to such complex structures and such beautifull diversity in nature.
Thanks for this answer as well.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 12:34:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Well, the answer should be short enough to fit into a sentence. And I think it's apropriate to this topic. So, lets hear the answer of when life begins, and the supporting biblical reference.
It would look something like:
Life begins when <insert phrase here>. Per bible passage xxxxx/n:nn
I have taken some time to look at your question of when the bible says life begins. It has been a while since my last post. I did not give up on this topic but my second daughter was born on the 15th and did not have time to respond. It was a good time for me to reflect on life and what God says about it.
I was wrong in thinking that life begins at conception. When the bible was written people thought that the mans sperm was like a seed and was planted in the woman to grow. The idea of conception as we know it today from scientific discovery postdates the bible. I assume you agree the bible teaches God is the creator of all life. It also teaches that God created you before conception. Your life began before your conception and your life's purpose was formed as well in the mind of God. This is shown in Jeremiah 1:5.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
The notion of conception as related to a sperm and an egg does not come up in the bible. This is the biblical view of conception, when God conceives of someone or something.
Psalm 139
And that my soul knows very well.
15My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
This indicates that life does not begin in the uterus, but in a “secret” place in God's own mind before conception. The idea that the bible teaches life begins at conception is biblically inaccurate.
Let me know if you agree that this is what the bible teaches.
On a personal note, as I watched my daughter being born I could not grasp that she was the product of evolution. That a complex birth process and body could have resulted from a simple form of life. Have any of you that believe in evolution had this thought before? That life just seems to complicated for evolution to have happened?
First, congrats on the birth of your second daughter. You must be very proud. (I was on the birth of my child.)
Second, the Bible does not mention whether God attaches the soul He creates in Psalms to the growing foetus in the womb. This bit of ambiguity allows people (and therefore, God) to wait until a foetus is well on the way before a soul is attached.
Thirdly, yes, I have witnessed the development and birth of my child. I never thought that it wasn't a product of evolution. It is a natural process which keeps the embryo at the proper temperature for survival, for one. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 13:06:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
First, congrats on the birth of your second daughter. You must be very proud. (I was on the birth of my child.)
Thank you, as you know, being a Dad is extremely cool.
quote:
Second, the Bible does not mention whether God attaches the soul He creates in Psalms to the growing foetus in the womb. This bit of ambiguity allows people (and therefore, God) to wait until a foetus is well on the way before a soul is attached.
I do not agree. God says
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" Jer 1:5.
How can God know the real you without your soul? God is saying that he knows YOU, not your DNA but you. Your personality, what your gifts and weaknesses are etc. was conceived by God before you were formed in your mothers womb.
quote:
Thirdly, yes, I have witnessed the development and birth of my child. I never thought that it wasn't a product of evolution. It is a natural process which keeps the embryo at the proper temperature for survival, for one.
Thanks for your answer.
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 13:11:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
On a personal note, as I watched my daughter being born I could not grasp that she was the product of evolution. That a complex birth process and body could have resulted from a simple form of life. Have any of you that believe in evolution had this thought before? That life just seems to complicated for evolution to have happened?
But she developed from a simple pair of single cells to the complex infant you saw born within a matter of nine months. That is perfect evidence for evolution, not the other way around. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 13:46:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
On a personal note, as I watched my daughter being born I could not grasp that she was the product of evolution. That a complex birth process and body could have resulted from a simple form of life. Have any of you that believe in evolution had this thought before? That life just seems to complicated for evolution to have happened?
But she developed from a simple pair of single cells to the complex infant you saw born within a matter of nine months. That is perfect evidence for evolution, not the other way around.
I don't think that a growing baby is evidence of evolution. It is the result evolution as I understand it. I wasn't making any proof for or against evolution, it was just the emotions I had at the time and wondering if anybody else had these same feelings. |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:44:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I don't think that a growing baby is evidence of evolution. It is the result evolution as I understand it.
It is the result, but for me, it's similar to the process of evolution in a metaphorical way.
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I wasn't making any proof for or against evolution, it was just the emotions I had at the time and wondering if anybody else had these same feelings.
Ah. I have those feelings all the time. I find the world we live in absolutely amazing. I won't go into detail so as not to derail the thread, but I definitely have those feelings. That's one of the many reasons I've learned not to trust my feelings. 
BTW, congratulations on the birth of your child. There is nothing quite like holding a newborn.  |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 15:09:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
Ah. I have those feelings all the time. I find the world we live in absolutely amazing. I won't go into detail so as not to derail the thread, but I definitely have those feelings. That's one of the many reasons I've learned not to trust my feelings.
They do get in the way sometimes, but I will trust some feelings such as love and joy.
quote:
BTW, congratulations on the birth of your child. There is nothing quite like holding a newborn.
Thanks, this is very true. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 15:11:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
When you watch a human embro grow, it first takes on the appearence of a fish. There is a small tail, and even gill slits. Fetuses even possess a fine fur (called lanugo) during the fifth month of development. This is evidence for evolution.
I don't know about evolution, but my daughter's back is pretty hairy. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 21:26:21 [Permalink]
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One more "congrats!" from me, Robb, before we get to the nitty-gritty:quote:
It also teaches that God created you before conception. Your life began before your conception and your life's purpose was formed as well in the mind of God. This is shown in Jeremiah 1:5.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Unfortunately, you can't generalize from what God said to Jeremiah to the same thing happening to everyone. Is every person appointed as a prophet to nations? In the King James Version, God even "sanctified" Jeremiah prior to his birth. Jeremiah 1 appears to be very specific with regard to the story, in that it was God telling one person that thus-and-such had happened. It doesn't appear to be a parable which should be taken as true for "insert your name here."quote:
The notion of conception as related to a sperm and an egg does not come up in the bible.
And I'm curious: why do you think that is? Why does a divinely-inspired (or even divinely-authored) book depend on euphemisms ("seed") and poetry to describe these processes? Why not just spell 'em out accurately?quote:
This is the biblical view of conception, when God conceives of someone or something.
Psalm 139
...
Now, with the NIV, Psalms 138 through 145 all seem to be prefaced as being prayers of David. Again, should we take the words 'me' and 'I' to mean anybody, or are the Bible's teachings here specific to just that one person? Certainly, David was a special guy in the Bible and in the eyes of God. Should the average Joe assume, hubristically perhaps, that what goes for David also goes for him/her?quote:
On a personal note, as I watched my daughter being born I could not grasp that she was the product of evolution. That a complex birth process and body could have resulted from a simple form of life. Have any of you that believe in evolution had this thought before? That life just seems to complicated for evolution to have happened?
Not I. But I learned, early on, that very complex "behaviour" can arise from the application of just a few simple rules. For example, accurate simulations of flocks of birds have been created using just four rules, followed by each individual bird:- Go in the same direction as your neighbors,
- try to maintain a certain distance from your neighbors,
- try to be in the center of the flock, and
- avoid obstacles.
Now, the "basic rules" of biology (and its underlying chemistry and physics) and genetics are vastly more complicated than that. That the overall behaviour of a cohesive group of a tremendously huge number of cells, each more-or-less independently obeying a large number of rules, is unbelievably complex should be easy to comprehend.
Adding the few more simple rules of evolution and "natural selection" to the mix shouldn't strain a person's brain all that much.
I mean, that's what got to me regarding the birth of my son: that two microscopic cells could merge, and just with the addition of food and a ho |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 06:23:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Second, the Bible does not mention whether God attaches the soul He creates in Psalms to the growing foetus in the womb. This bit of ambiguity allows people (and therefore, God) to wait until a foetus is well on the way before a soul is attached.
I do not agree. God says
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" Jer 1:5.
How can God know the real you without your soul? God is saying that he knows YOU, not your DNA but you. Your personality, what your gifts and weaknesses are etc. was conceived by God before you were formed in your mothers womb.
Because, unlike humans, the devine can communicate with the eternal part of ourselves known as the soul. The soul of the child is pre-existing until the devine assigns it to a feotus. Or so is the line of reasoning. Not all pregnancies go to term. Several people question why God would waste attaching a soul to a feotus which will never be born. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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