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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2004 : 06:40:24 [Permalink]
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Robb, I too say congrats on your new daughter. I raised two as a single parent and they have been a delight to me for 30 years (although there have been times when I could have happily throttled the lovely, little monsters). Now I spoil my grands, much to their distress. 
May your children give you as much joy as mine have me.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 09:01:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
One more "congrats!" from me, Robb, before we get to the nitty-gritty:
Thanks
quote:
quote:
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Unfortunately, you can't generalize from what God said to Jeremiah to the same thing happening to everyone. Is every person appointed as a prophet to nations? In the King James Version, God even "sanctified" Jeremiah prior to his birth. Jeremiah 1 appears to be very specific with regard to the story, in that it was God telling one person that thus-and-such had happened. It doesn't appear to be a parable which should be taken as true for "insert your name here."
It is true that God gave him his purpose that is specific to him. What I take from it is that God knows us before we are conceived by our parents (just like Jeramiah)and even gives us each a purpose. Just because Jeramiah has a different purpose doesn't discount that God knows us as well before we are conceived. TA least I don't think so.
quote:
quote:
The notion of conception as related to a sperm and an egg does not come up in the bible.
And I'm curious: why do you think that is? Why does a divinely-inspired (or even divinely-authored) book depend on euphemisms ("seed") and poetry to describe these processes? Why not just spell 'em out accurately?
God chose different styles of writing to convey his message, maybe because some are not technical people and understand poetry or narrative writing better. I don't know. I do know that God did not write the Bible for us to understand our universe as science tries to do, the bible is about Jesus and his message to everyone. It is not a science book.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 09:07:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Robb, I too say congrats on your new daughter. I raised two as a single parent and they have been a delight to me for 30 years (although there have been times when I could have happily throttled the lovely, little monsters). Now I spoil my grands, much to their distress.
May your children give you as much joy as mine have me.
Thanks for the encouragement and keep spoiling those grandkids. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 11:19:18 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote:quote:
I do know that God did not write the Bible for us to understand our universe as science tries to do, the bible is about Jesus and his message to everyone. It is not a science book.
Then what's the point of looking to the Bible for an answer to a scientific question: "when does life begin?"
Obviously, based upon a broad interpretation of Jeremiah 1 and Psalm 139, it can be argued that God creates souls prior to conception. But does a soul "live" as a human being does?
With respect to the subject of this thread, the souls of unborn children do not "die" or otherwise suffer due to an abortion. Do they? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 11:29:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Obviously, based upon a broad interpretation of Jeremiah 1 and Psalm 139, it can be argued that God creates souls prior to conception. But does a soul "live" as a human being does?
With respect to the subject of this thread, the souls of unborn children do not "die" or otherwise suffer due to an abortion. Do they?
Plus, when does the soul actually get attached to the fetus? I mean, if we're going with Jeremiah 1 and Psalm 139, we may have to get rid of birth control again. 
Not only that, since unborn children definitely won't go to hell, isn't it sort of a good thing to abort them? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 12:32:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Not only that, since unborn children definitely won't go to hell, isn't it sort of a good thing to abort them?
What about Original Sin? Doesn't everyone have to be baptized for that to go to heaven? Would a fetus have Original Sin? Should we baptize dead fetus that is the result of a miscarriage? (and who would do such a thing? I don't think priests would want to)
In Protestant circles - no. You don't have to get saved until you reach the age of accountability - something that varies according to the person, but is generally thought to be around age 8 and up.
In Catholic circles - the baby goes to Limbo which is better than Purgatory but not as great as Heaven, and they can't ever get out.
These are general rules, and since there are almost 30,000 Protestant denominations, you'll probably find a few that disagree with the above, but for the most part, that's how it is. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 13:16:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
In Protestant circles - no. You don't have to get saved until you reach the age of accountability - something that varies according to the person, but is generally thought to be around age 8 and up.
Hmm, loophole? If a child who is 6 years old goes around with a gun killing everyone, he will go to heaven if he dies by the time he is 8?
That's why I said something that varies according to the person. I think it's a pretty good loophole though. I know that what I was always taught was that we weren't qualified to judge who would and wouldn't go to hell. Only God was. Thus, we can declare that entire groups of people like Muslims are going to hell, but Sister Smith's muslim sister might have gotten saved at the last minute. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 10:14:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
In Protestant circles - no. You don't have to get saved until you reach the age of accountability - something that varies according to the person, but is generally thought to be around age 8 and up.
In Catholic circles - the baby goes to Limbo which is better than Purgatory but not as great as Heaven, and they can't ever get out.
These are general rules, and since there are almost 30,000 Protestant denominations, you'll probably find a few that disagree with the above, but for the most part, that's how it is.
Actually, Catholicism dropped the Limbo thing in the mid 70s. They do, however, allow anyone to perform a baptism in an emergency situation. That's why there are so many 'lay ministers' at the hospitals. That is, of course, later followed by the adult confirmation (age 14-16) to your commitment to the church. After which they require weekly reconciliation. Age 5 is the age at which you begin to participate in the fasting, renunciation of physical comfort during lent, etc. Prior to age 5, you are considered too young to understand (not well enough inculcated) the transfiguration. That's why communion is withheld until the age of 5 in the Catholic church. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 10:23:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Actually, Catholicism dropped the Limbo thing in the mid 70s. They do, however, allow anyone to perform a baptism in an emergency situation. That's why there are so many 'lay ministers' at the hospitals. That is, of course, later followed by the adult confirmation (age 14-16) to your commitment to the church. After which they require weekly reconciliation. Age 5 is the age at which you begin to participate in the fasting, renunciation of physical comfort during lent, etc. Prior to age 5, you are considered too young to understand (not well enough inculcated) the transfiguration. That's why communion is withheld until the age of 5 in the Catholic church.
That's good information to have. My background is Protestant, and while I have a couple of Catholic friends, they never want to talk about it.
It's good to know everybody has loopholes these days. Why, the Presbyterians have quit believing in Satan. Not sure where they stand on hell though. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 10:39:11 [Permalink]
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| I went to Catholic grade school. Any questions about Catholicism - I'd be happy to answer if I can. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 03:03:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
I went to Catholic grade school. Any questions about Catholicism - I'd be happy to answer if I can.
OK, why would god want so may spontaneous miscarriages to occur? They are estimated to occur in 10-20% of all pregnancies.
http://www.2womenshealth.co.uk/12-07.htm
And, if that's the case, what's the big deal with stem cell research? |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 08:20:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
OK, why would god want so may spontaneous miscarriages to occur? They are estimated to occur in 10-20% of all pregnancies.
http://www.2womenshealth.co.uk/12-07.htm
And, if that's the case, what's the big deal with stem cell research?
God does not want this to occur. In short, God did not create the world we live in today, God created a world where men and women did not have these kinds of problems. God called it the garden of Eden (Gen 1). It was our sins (Adam and Eve) that caused us to get banned from that world (Gen 3). Now because of sin, there are terrible things in this world such as disease, poverty, death, miscarriages etc.
At least this is what I understand from studying the bible. The more important question is: What do we do about our sin? |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 08:49:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
OK, why would god want so may spontaneous miscarriages to occur? They are estimated to occur in 10-20% of all pregnancies.
http://www.2womenshealth.co.uk/12-07.htm
And, if that's the case, what's the big deal with stem cell research?
God does not want this to occur. In short, God did not create the world we live in today, God created a world where men and women did not have these kinds of problems. God called it the garden of Eden (Gen 1). It was our sins (Adam and Eve) that caused us to get banned from that world (Gen 3). Now because of sin, there are terrible things in this world such as disease, poverty, death, miscarriages etc.
At least this is what I understand from studying the bible. The more important question is: What do we do about our sin?
I just want to be sure I understand you. This great, omnipotent loving God took the one thing he knew would devastate the world, put it in front of his children, made it look like a treat, and then said not to touch it. This is after giving them human nature.
Then, for the next 10,000 years, he allowed all of us to suffer based on the naivety of the first two humans.
Next, he violently murdered his own innocent son as some sort of sacrifice for eating a piece of fruit.
Now, if we don't fall down and say we love this son of his, we get to be tortured eternally.
Do I have it right? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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