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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 08/16/2004 : 11:29:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by SciFi Chick
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I just want to be sure I understand you. This great, omnipotent loving God took the one thing he knew would devastate the world, put it in front of his children, made it look like a treat, and then said not to touch it. This is after giving them human nature.
God gave us the gift of freewill. He did this because he wants us to love him because he loves us, he craves for us to love Him. There is no love without free will. By giving us freewill we have choices to make, Adam and Eve chose wrong, just as we would have and currently choose wrong. God allowed satan to tempt Adam ande Eve as he allows satan to tempt us. We do have free choice, I am sure you agree that it is fair that we are free to choose to follow him or not and not made to follow God.
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Then, for the next 10,000 years, he allowed all of us to suffer based on the naivety of the first two humans.
All people have proven that they would have sinned in some way if they were Adam or Eve, so we cannot blame them soley for what happened. Also, Adam and Eve were not naive, God told them what was right and wrong and they clearly understood that eating of the tree was wrong (Gen 1:16-17)
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Next, he violently murdered his own innocent son as some sort of sacrifice for eating a piece of fruit.
God did not force Jesus to die for us, He willingly gave his life, so that we can live eternity with God (Mat. 26:52-54).
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Now, if we don't fall down and say we love this son of his, we get to be tortured eternally.
If you truley seek Jesus he will show you how to build a relationship with him and change your heart. Jesus is the only way to heaven. As for hell, it is real, but I do not know the particulars, most likely it will be unpleasant. |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 12:10:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
quote:
I just want to be sure I understand you. This great, omnipotent loving God took the one thing he knew would devastate the world, put it in front of his children, made it look like a treat, and then said not to touch it. This is after giving them human nature.
God gave us the gift of freewill. He did this because he wants us to love him because he loves us, he craves for us to love Him. There is no love without free will. By giving us freewill we have choices to make, Adam and Eve chose wrong, just as we would have and currently choose wrong. God allowed satan to tempt Adam ande Eve as he allows satan to tempt us. We do have free choice, I am sure you agree that it is fair that we are free to choose to follow him or not and not made to follow God.
I am sure you are mistaken in thinking I agree that anything about that scenario is fair. Giving me a choice between doing what you say and going to hell is akin to holding a gun to my head, demanding my money, and then telling me I have the free will to pay up or die. I don't call that free will.
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Then, for the next 10,000 years, he allowed all of us to suffer based on the naivety of the first two humans.
All people have proven that they would have sinned in some way if they were Adam or Eve, so we cannot blame them soley for what happened. Also, Adam and Eve were not naive, God told them what was right and wrong and they clearly understood that eating of the tree was wrong (Gen 1:16-17)
God did not tell them what was right and wrong. They did not know the difference between good and evil until after they ate the fruit. Also, how can you think it is okay to institute the death penalty for eating a piece of fruit? How is that justice? And before you tell me that we cannot judge God, I most certainly can, because I do not believe that God could make a creature with higher morals than he possesses.
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Next, he violently murdered his own innocent son as some sort of sacrifice for eating a piece of fruit.
God did not force Jesus to die for us, He willingly gave his life, so that we can live eternity with God (Mat. 26:52-54).
Why is that necessary? Why couldn't he, being the creator of the universe, just say, "You know what? I forgive you." End of story. That would be real love. When I was a kid, and I ate something after my parents told me not to, the worst they did was smack me on the bottom. They didn't feel I needed to die, and no one had to sacrifice anything for me. My parents were sovereign and they forgave me. They also taught me why things were wrong, rather than throwing out arbitrary rules and regulations.
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Now, if we don't fall down and say we love this son of his, we get to be tortured eternally.
If you truley seek Jesus he will show you how to build a relationship with him and change your heart. Jesus is the only way to heaven. As for hell, it is real, but I do not know the particulars, most likely it will be unpleasant.
Why is Jesus the only way to heaven? Why do I have to seek him? Why doesn't he seek me? And not knowing the particulars of hell is no answer to my question. If you aren't even going to try and answer the questions, this is a waste of time.
Explain to me the kind of love that says, "Do as I say, or you will be punished - forever." Whether hell is active torture or just unpleasant, it's clear that you're on the losing end of the stick if you go there. Why is it necessary at all? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 12:53:11 [Permalink]
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Every religion is so absolutely sure that their "God" is the only "God" and they are ready and willing to do whatever it takes to make everyone believe as they do. Why is this necessary? If a person's religion is a personal relationship with "God" then why is it so important for everyone else to believe as you do?
I think the real reason is that religion is actually more a means of social control. Religion is political in the extreme and our founding fathers knew this all too well, hence the separation of Church and State.
Now, that said onto the issue of abortion. Not everyone who has an abortion suffers from Post Abortion Syndrome. How can a blanket statement like "abortion is never a good thing for anyone involved" possibly be correct for everyone? Some people do not have a religious belief that bans abortion, hence why would this apply to them? Well, it doesn't apply to them! The argument is that the anti-abortion stance is backed by "God" and any belief to the contrary is of no consequence because their religion is the only "right" religion. So, we arrive at the place are are at now.
I think Mark Twain said it well:
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Irreverence is another person's disrespect to your god; there isn't any word that tells what your disrespect to his god is.
-- Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
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"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:10:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by N C More
Every religion is so absolutely sure that their "God" is the only "God" and they are ready and willing to do whatever it takes to make everyone believe as they do. Why is this necessary? If a person's religion is a personal relationship with "God" then why is it so important for everyone else to believe as you do?
Not every religion actively looks for converts. Wicca believes that all people must find their way to the divine and that people need seek them out if they wish to convert to Wicca. All religions that have a diety belive that the diety is the only one(s), otherwise worship of aforementioned diety is illogical and counter-productive. Some of them believe that practioners of other religions worship other aspects of the devine than they do.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:16:59 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote:quote:
God allowed satan to tempt Adam ande Eve as he allows satan to tempt us.
I'm still waiting for someone to come up with the verses which demostrate that God created Satan with Free Will. Otherwise, saying "God allows Satan to tempt us towards sin" is the same as saying "God tempts us towards sin." Actually, since your statement implies that God can stop Satan from tempting anyone, His divine inaction is tantamount to temptation, anyway. Forget about the question of Satan's Free Will, whether it's there or not is irrelevant to the fact that God could stop Satan from being so nasty. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:04:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by SciFi Chick
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I am sure you are mistaken in thinking I agree that anything about that scenario is fair. Giving me a choice between doing what you say and going to hell is akin to holding a gun to my head, demanding my money, and then telling me I have the free will to pay up or die. I don't call that free will.
Free will does not mean that you can do what you choose and not have any consequences of what you choose, good or bad. God gave every person in the world free will and no man can take it away. If you lived under the Taliban, you still had free will, the consequences of you actions may be more severe there than say in the U.S. if you fought for women's rights. I have the free will to commit adultery, but I know that it would end up ruining my marriage, It is still free will.
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God did not tell them what was right and wrong. They did not know the difference between good and evil until after they ate the fruit.
God told them that it was good to do anything they wanted except eat the fruit of the tree which was bad. They even knew the consequences of eating, God told them they would die and they did.
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Also, how can you think it is okay to institute the death penalty for eating a piece of fruit? How is that justice?
Jesus said himself that the wages of sin is death. It was a sin to eat of the tree and they knew it.
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And before you tell me that we cannot judge God, I most certainly can, because I do not believe that God could make a creature with higher morals than he possesses.
I do not understand this statement, can you explain?
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Why is that necessary? Why couldn't he, being the creator of the universe, just say, "You know what? I forgive you." End of story. That would be real love. When I was a kid, and I ate something after my parents told me not to, the worst they did was smack me on the bottom. They didn't feel I needed to die, and no one had to sacrifice anything for me. My parents were sovereign and they forgave me. They also taught me why things were wrong, rather than throwing out arbitrary rules and regulations.
Does love require no accountability? I discipline my children because I want other people to love than not just their parents. It is for their own good I discipline them. If I don't, the results could be disastrous, including death from drugs, gangs etc. I also will forgive them whatever they do, but will require punishment, not for my love but because I love them. It sound like your parents understood this.
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Why is Jesus the only way to heaven?
God is all loving and also just. It is not in His character to just forgive us without punishing us. See above. The only way to reconcile both aspects of Gods character is to sacrifice himself for all people once and for all. He forgives us and |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:19:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I think I covered this question in my previous replies, let me know if you do not think so.
Thanks for attempting to answer my questions. I still have one burning question that you have not answered however. Let me reword it.
My parents punished me. They did not kill me. No matter what I do, they will always love me.
Now, God should be better than humans, wouldn't you agree? And yet, his answer for everything is eternal punishment. And it got harsher after Jesus came. Now, you're judged for what you think as well as what you do, and you can go to hell for the simple act of hate.
My parents would never punish a temporal mistake with an eternal punishment. Our time here is like the blink of an eye, and yet, the so-called loving God will punish you FOREVER just for not believing in him.
A lot of people see no evidence of him. They could not believe in him if he tried. When dealing with something like eternity, why doesn't he make it clear in some way other than the Bible? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:37:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by N C More
quote:
Every religion is so absolutely sure that their "God" is the only "God" and they are ready and willing to do whatever it takes to make everyone believe as they do. Why is this necessary? If a person's religion is a personal relationship with "God" then why is it so important for everyone else to believe as you do?
I try to love everybody as the Bible teahes, you would call me a hypocrite if I said I loved everyone but would not keep them from hell if I could.
quote:
Now, that said onto the issue of abortion. Not everyone who has an abortion suffers from Post Abortion Syndrome. How can a blanket statement like "abortion is never a good thing for anyone involved" possibly be correct for everyone? Some people do not have a religious belief that bans abortion, hence why would this apply to them? Well, it doesn't apply to them! The argument is that the anti-abortion stance is backed by "God" and any belief to the contrary is of no consequence because their religion is the only "right" religion. So, we arrive at the place are are at now.
Truth applies to everybody whether you choose to beleive it or not. This is also consistant with what the Bible teaches.
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:43:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Not every religion actively looks for converts. Wicca believes that all people must find their way to the divine and that people need seek them out if they wish to convert to Wicca. All religions that have a diety belive that the diety is the only one(s), otherwise worship of aforementioned diety is illogical and counter-productive. Some of them believe that practioners of other religions worship other aspects of the devine than they do.
I stand corrected. Having not encountered any Wiccans I'm rather ignorant as to their beliefs. I spoke from the perspective of what I've experienced and should have said, "Many religions" not "All religions" as I'm (obviously) not familiar with all religions! |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 16:05:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by N C More
quote:
Every religion is so absolutely sure that their "God" is the only "God" and they are ready and willing to do whatever it takes to make everyone believe as they do. Why is this necessary? If a person's religion is a personal relationship with "God" then why is it so important for everyone else to believe as you do?
I try to love everybody as the Bible teahes, you would call me a hypocrite if I said I loved everyone but would not keep them from hell if I could.
quote:
Now, that said onto the issue of abortion. Not everyone who has an abortion suffers from Post Abortion Syndrome. How can a blanket statement like "abortion is never a good thing for anyone involved" possibly be correct for everyone? Some people do not have a religious belief that bans abortion, hence why would this apply to them? Well, it doesn't apply to them! The argument is that the anti-abortion stance is backed by "God" and any belief to the contrary is of no consequence because their religion is the only "right" religion. So, we arrive at the place are are at now.
Truth applies to everybody whether you choose to beleive it or not. This is also consistant with what the Bible teaches.
Why do you believe your religion is correct and the others are wrong? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 16:07:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Truth applies to everybody whether you choose to beleive it or not. This is also consistant with what the Bible teaches.
My point exactly! Your assessment of what the "truth" is, you apply to everyone and proceed to back up your claim by using the Bible which you say is "truthful" as well. This position is in reality based on faith not some verifiable truth.
However, this discussion will ultimately achieve nothing. I'm very glad I live in a country in which the Constitution provides for freedom of religion...or perhaps I should say freedom from religion! |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 17:51:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Posted by Robb: He does, the Bible says seek and you will find. If you put an effort to find God he will reveal himself to you. Most people will not even try to find God. He will not force you to love him.
But you get sent to hell if you don't love him? Eternal damnation? What an asshole.....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 19:22:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude:
But you get sent to hell if you don't love him? Eternal damnation? What an asshole.....
Whoa Dude! You may have just sealed your fate. On the bright side, Robb will still love you... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 21:53:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
But you get sent to hell if you don't love him? Eternal damnation? What an asshole.....
Indeed. I will certanly burn in hell (in the extremly remote possibility that the god of the Bible really exists). |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 05:22:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Whoa Dude! You may have just sealed your fate. On the bright side, Robb will still love you...
Ironic isn't it, Robb, a mere human, can still love a "sinner" but this omnipotent God will send him straight to hell!
Our universe is magnificent and if there is a God somehow involved then I certainly do love him/her/it. However, all of the religious constructs created by humans to control society are not likely to have anything to do with him/her/it! Just the humble opinion of an old agnostic. |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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