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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
 Posted - 08/17/2004 : 06:00:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
But you get sent to hell if you don't love him? Eternal damnation? What an asshole.....
Indeed. I will certanly burn in hell (in the extremly remote possibility that the god of the Bible really exists).
You can just join the rebellion. The way I see it, if the god of the Bible is real, the entire Bible is a propaganda machine against the real good guy - Lucifer - bringer of light and knowledge.
Let's not forget that Adam and Eve got condemned because they sought knowledge. God wanted them to remain ignorant. That implies that knowledge is power. Either hell has gotten a bad rap, or we'll just have to figure a way out of there and overthrow god.
BTW, those of you who like this concept might want to read the His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman. They are for children, which I think is pretty darn sneaky.  |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 07:12:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by SciFi Chick
quote:
Why do you believe your religion is correct and the others are wrong?
3 years ago, when we found out we were going to have our first child, I decided I needed to see if there was really a God. As soon as I started ,God revealed himself to me. Through prayer and study God has changed things that I could not change about myself before I accepted Jesus. I had anger problems and was not the husband I should have been to my wife. Jesus changed my heart and my life as the Bible promised. Most other religions have some sort of ledger balance, do more good than bad and you get to heaven. Good works are born out of Christianity because of Gods gift of grace. Basically I beleive because of what God promised in the Bible that He will change my heart is why I beleive that Christianity is true.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 07:15:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by N C More
quote:
My point exactly! Your assessment of what the "truth" is, you apply to everyone and proceed to back up your claim by using the Bible which you say is "truthful" as well. This position is in reality based on faith not some verifiable truth.
Correct.
quote:
I'm very glad I live in a country in which the Constitution provides for freedom of religion...
I agree. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 07:19:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
quote:
But you get sent to hell if you don't love him? Eternal damnation? What an asshole.....
How does this kind of statement help discussion between christians and non-christians? or do you want discussion? |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 07:23:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
quote:
Why do you believe your religion is correct and the others are wrong?
3 years ago, when we found out we were going to have our first child, I decided I needed to see if there was really a God. As soon as I started ,God revealed himself to me. Through prayer and study God has changed things that I could not change about myself before I accepted Jesus. I had anger problems and was not the husband I should have been to my wife. Jesus changed my heart and my life as the Bible promised. Most other religions have some sort of ledger balance, do more good than bad and you get to heaven. Good works are born out of Christianity because of Gods gift of grace. Basically I beleive because of what God promised in the Bible that He will change my heart is why I beleive that Christianity is true.
All this paragraph tells me is that you are ignorant of other religions and what they teach.
I also haven't seen any good works in Christianity that can't be found elsewhere. Some people actually work to help society because they just care.
Anyway, thanks for answering my questions. If you ever care to look at the inconsistencies found throughout your belief system, I would enjoy discoursing with you further. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 08:33:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
quote:
Why do you believe your religion is correct and the others are wrong?
3 years ago, when we found out we were going to have our first child, I decided I needed to see if there was really a God. As soon as I started ,God revealed himself to me. Through prayer and study God has changed things that I could not change about myself before I accepted Jesus. I had anger problems and was not the husband I should have been to my wife. Jesus changed my heart and my life as the Bible promised. Most other religions have some sort of ledger balance, do more good than bad and you get to heaven. Good works are born out of Christianity because of Gods gift of grace. Basically I beleive because of what God promised in the Bible that He will change my heart is why I beleive that Christianity is true.
It appears that you did not do a comprehensive study of religions.
Some religions don't have a heaven.
**** what follows is religious tenets, not to be confused with absolute fact ***
My religion (Wicca) teaches that to get good coming towards us, we must put out good. (similar to the Christian teaching of whatever you put out comes back to you three times.) The afterlife consists of a place where we are renewed and reincarnated to learn the next lesson (or re-learn the last lesson). After all of life's lessons are learned, we go on to the next world. There is no Heaven, Hell, or the Devil in Wicca. The devine reveals itself in many aspects. Which is why we interpret people following other spiritual paths which include a supreme being as following another aspect of our central creative force.
The Wiccan Rede is An Ye Harm None, Do What Thou Wilt. What this indicates is that in all our dealings with people, we should strive to do no harm. Also, questioning and critical thought are generally encouraged.
**** end religious tenets ***
I'm glad you have found a path that works for you. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 08:44:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Also, questioning and critical thought are generally encouraged.
I'm curious. How do you reconcile your faith with science? You say that critical thought is encouraged. Do you have any empirical evidence for the beliefs you outlined above? Or does that not bother you? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 09:14:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Also, questioning and critical thought are generally encouraged.
I'm curious. How do you reconcile your faith with science? You say that critical thought is encouraged. Do you have any empirical evidence for the beliefs you outlined above? Or does that not bother you?
Reconciling my faith with science is pretty easy. They deal with two completely different frames of reference. Science describes systems, methodologies of change, and natural observable phenomenon. My faith deals with philosophy and conjecture of what happens after death. It fulfills a psychological need that I have for a higher power which loves me unconditionally and wants to help me make changes within myself. It fulfills another need I have for mysticism and ritual.
Critical thought is encouraged as it relates to science and interpersonal relationships. When I was first learning about the religion, I was told that I should ask any question that I wanted to about the religion. If I didn't understand it, they would try to re-phrase it. If I didn't agree with it and it was a main tenet, then perhaps that spiritual path wasn't for me. Also, several people claim to have set up Wiccan groups and actually have a charismatic leader requiring blind obeidiance. Wiccan law and Wiccan Rede define the ethical points of the religion. None of them require blind/unquestioning obeidiance to a leader. It is common for practioners in a Wiccan coven to grow apart from the rest of the group and seek out another coven.
As for empirical evidence of the beliefs I hold, I have exactly jack squat. It doesn't bother me because I regard it as philosophy rather than science. I don't, however, make the mistake of saying that what I believe is particularly relevant to any other religion nor that it is scientific in any way.
I have compartmentalized my faith (which fulfills spiritual needs for me) from science. It helps that my faith does not have a creation story. Science is recognized as the best tool for analyzing the physical world. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 08/17/2004 09:18:28 |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 09:34:45 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the explanation. I am still exploring my own beliefs. If you've read my other posts, you know that I came out of Christianity a few years ago, so I'm not eager to embrace anything.
However, I have a psychological need similar to yours, and I have plenty of personal anecdotes that lead me to believe in an Otherworld, and I've even been exploring the concept of reincarnation. If nothing else, it will make a good story.
I think the biggest change I've experienced in myself since leaving the church, is I'm no longer afraid to be wrong about philosophical things, so it leaves me free to explore, and that's fun. Also, my heritage is primarily Northern Europe with some Cherokee and Seminole thrown in, so I'm fascinated by the spiritual lives of those tribes and the Celts. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 10:12:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
Thanks for the explanation. I am still exploring my own beliefs. If you've read my other posts, you know that I came out of Christianity a few years ago, so I'm not eager to embrace anything.
However, I have a psychological need similar to yours, and I have plenty of personal anecdotes that lead me to believe in an Otherworld, and I've even been exploring the concept of reincarnation. If nothing else, it will make a good story.
I think the biggest change I've experienced in myself since leaving the church, is I'm no longer afraid to be wrong about philosophical things, so it leaves me free to explore, and that's fun. Also, my heritage is primarily Northern Europe with some Cherokee and Seminole thrown in, so I'm fascinated by the spiritual lives of those tribes and the Celts.
No problem. Like you, I started as Christian. I started having real problems with dogma as it related to the Bible. So I started reading it. Ulitmately, I rejected Christianity as my path and started to research other religions. I researched Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and finally Wicca (by accident through a friend).
If you start getting interested in researching faiths, I can recommend "Drawing Down The Moon" by Margot Adler and "Spiral Dance" by Starhawk (although Starhawk gets a little man-hating feminist at times) as good sources on the Wiccan religion. The Qu'ran and Hadiths are good for Islam (online versions at http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html and http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html ). The Bhaglavad Gita is a good source for the Hindu religion. (If you get the Hare Krishna "Bhaglavad Gita As It Is" edition, as I did, it is necessary to ignore the commentary given on what the passages mean.) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 14:09:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer: My faith deals with philosophy and conjecture of what happens after death. It fulfills a psychological need that I have for a higher power which loves me unconditionally and wants to help me make changes within myself. It fulfills another need I have for mysticism and ritual.
Not that it's either here or there, but through intense contemplation I have discovered I possess no such needs. I think that's partly why I've been so utterly non-religious over the years. There truly is no part of me that yearns for the things you mention.
quote:
As for empirical evidence of the beliefs I hold, I have exactly jack squat. It doesn't bother me because I regard it as philosophy rather than science. I don't, however, make the mistake of saying that what I believe is particularly relevant to any other religion nor that it is scientific in any way. I have compartmentalized my faith (which fulfills spiritual needs for me) from science. It helps that my faith does not have a creation story. Science is recognized as the best tool for analyzing the physical world.
It is good that you can maintain that balance. Most cannot. |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/17/2004 14:13:43 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 16:32:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Dude:
But you get sent to hell if you don't love him? Eternal damnation? What an asshole.....
Whoa Dude! You may have just sealed your fate. On the bright side, Robb will still love you...
Hell always sounded more interesting to me than heaven anyway. I mean, think of all the amazing people to be found in hell. I'd like nothing better than to have a chance to chat with Socrates and Plato. Have a chance to speak with Ghandi. Listen in on a conversation between Alexander and Diogenes. Shoot some pool with Augustus and Julius. Talk politics with Jefferson and Adams. Watch a debate between Voltaire and anyone stupid enough to try and cross wits with him. Listen to the storytelling of Homer. The list goes on and on and on..... The vast majority of the most brilliant humans in history will be found in hell if the christians are right. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 21:03:03 [Permalink]
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Fairly on-topic question: Valiant Dancer, what domain do you personally think the question "When does life begin" (considering anti-abortionists point of view on abortion) belong, scientific or philosophical?
I thought if your faith makes a stand on the question... Being Wiccan, you represent a (religious) point of view I'm haven't had much contact with. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 06:35:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Fairly on-topic question: Valiant Dancer, what domain do you personally think the question "When does life begin" (considering anti-abortionists point of view on abortion) belong, scientific or philosophical?
I thought if your faith makes a stand on the question... Being Wiccan, you represent a (religious) point of view I'm haven't had much contact with.
Ulitimately, "when does life begin" is a philosophical question. A scientific standpoint would say that a new life begins when the sperm and egg combine to become a zygote. This is merely life, not sentient life or life that is viable outside the womb. Only the philisophical answer to the question has been the basis of objections to abortion.
That one is a tricky issue. As it is a decision of what constitutes the most harm and situational ethics, Wicca says that abortion must be kept legal as there are many legitamate medical reasons that an abortion must be performed. To not allow an abortion in some situations would be causing a great deal of harm. Now for people who use abortion as a form of birth control (very, very rare), abortion is generally discouraged. There has to be a valid reason to have an abortion besides "dammit, I want one". Whether that reason is medical, emotional, or socio-economic, whatever causes the least harm should be pursued. It is up to the individual to make the determination for themselves when they think life begins. The only consensus that I have found is that it is when the soul attaches to the fetus. When that occurs is a matter of personal speculation. But, since the soul is reborn instead of sent to an eternal holding area, we can do ceremonies to comfort those who are placed in that situation where they had to make that decision.
Morally, Wicca says that we must strive to cause the least harm possible. Given the nature of life, this is not always a clear cut decision.
My personal feeling is that the soul attaches when the first independant brain waves are evidenced by the fetus (about the end of the first trimester of a normal pregnancy). However, some situations occur after this point which make it medically necessary to abort a fetus. This is a case where science influences my philosophy. It's really invalid to have it flow the other way. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 08/18/2004 06:44:24 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 10:33:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Now for people who use abortion as a form of birth control (very, very rare), abortion is generally discouraged. There has to be a valid reason to have an abortion besides "dammit, I want one". Whether that reason is medical, emotional, or socio-economic, whatever causes the least harm should be pursued
I disagree that abortion as a form of birth control is "very, very rare". This link states that from a 1987 AGI study the following results were obtained.http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
unready for responsibility 21%
is too immature or young to have child 11%
woman's parents want her to have abortion <0.5%
has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
husband or partner wants her to have abortion 1%
has all the children she wanted or all children are grown 8%
can't afford baby now 21%
concerned about how having baby would change her life 16%
These are all valid reasons for birth control and they add up to 90%. 90% of all abortions are used as a birth control method. |
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