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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2001 : 05:42:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Something else scary to think about: I've heard more than one person express a wish for a larger active duty presense in this country. I've talked to one lady who says we should be in every airport and plane, and walking the beat with cops. I pointed out that this is called martial law, and she was unfazed. She said "I want to feel safe".
Safety aside, I feel martial law would be a Bad Thing. One of our country's tenets in not letting the military run things. (Except wars, we're good at that)
Lisa
Let's see if I can gat this quote right.
"Those who give up lberty for security shall have neither".
-Ben Franklin
Greg.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 08:16:14 [Permalink]
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Ummmm, no I am not talking about slavery. That might still be relevant to same issues but not this one we are discussing. I said we still have a right to defend ouselves. I never said we didn't. I do absolutely think I made some good points worth thinking about. Past decisions by these old administrations gave bin Laden the motivation for his terror campaign.
I don't think it's petty or a pot shot to discuss something like this. Not at all.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 09:10:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't think it's petty or a pot shot to discuss something like this. Not at all.
In fact, it is our duty as a free people and as Americans.
Doesn't anyone remember the late 80's and early 90's "peace dividend". How the CIA could now be used to twart corporate espionage and protect "intellectual property" overseas (proclamations of G H W Bush) instead of spying on the Soviets. This has been happening for the past 3 Administrations now. Isn't it surprising that the US government is so interested in maintaining corporate profits that it totally blows something like this? I am all for free markets but i'm afraid that is a thing of the past. For 50 years now, our agencies have (mostly without the knowlege/approval of the US people) been fighting communism by spreading fascism.
The people in those towers died because some fundamentalist fanatics believed it their God given responsibility to do it. All of the American people have been let down by the priorities of the government that is supposed to protect us.
Greg.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 09:48:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
So what? What is your purpose of pointing this out?
Two Emails this morning.
One from my daughter. She says that my son was hurt and sent to the hospitable but that he insists that he is all right and intends to return to ground zero this afternoon.
The other from an Administrative Assistant I know at Doubleday. She asks if my daughter got out okay (she is fine, by the way. Setting up job interviews already. But refused to go to one in The Empire State Building). Then she goes on to say that her son was on the 98th floor and she hasn't heard from him but isn't giving up hope.
She isn't giving up hope. ….
I don't know what to say. I can't respond.
The tears are steaming down my face.
So I look at this web site, something I do to change the direction of my thoughts. Let's me come back to problems fresh.
But what do I find? A poll completely shifted to find fault with Americans for the attack. And a thread bitching because some highly distressed person called up a radio station and was rude towards Afghans or some non white people or other.
@tomic I am stunned and dismayed that at a time when our largest city is infused with the stink from the rotting corpses of thousands and thousands of innocent people that you should write such "inappropriate" things. Perhaps you can explain your motivation as, like Rubysue, conjecture on my part leads only to the most unflattering conclusions.
The smoke is still rising from the rubble damn it.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 09:54:50 [Permalink]
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@tomic I am stunned and dismayed that at a time when our largest city is infused with the stink from the rotting corpses of thousands and thousands of innocent people that you should write such "inappropriate" things. Perhaps you can explain your motivation as, like Rubysue, conjecture on my part leads only to the most unflattering conclusions.
My motivation is the search for answers. Are you suggesting that in such a search, as we overturn stones, that we skip a few for fear of what lies underneath? The way I see it, a series of foreign policy blunders in the 80's led to the Gulf War which finally led to bin Laden's crusade against America. As for the poll...what would you prefer? A poll that asks whether we should use nuclear weapons or nerve gas? Should we not discuss blind hatred and attacks towards Arab-Americans? It's more than a few statements against these Americans. Mosques have been fire bombed, threats have been made and there are reports of two racially motivated killings of innocent Americans and you find a problem with that???
So when is the time to discuss it?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 10:01:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Something else scary to think about: I've heard more than one person express a wish for a larger active duty presense in this country. I've talked to one lady who says we should be in every airport and plane, and walking the beat with cops. I pointed out that this is called martial law, and she was unfazed. She said "I want to feel safe".
Safety aside, I feel martial law would be a Bad Thing. One of our country's tenets in not letting the military run things. (Except wars, we're good at that)
Lisa
Lisa,
My idea of what the function of the military can be summed up into major and minor functions. They are:
Major Functions
1) Kill People
2) Break things
3) Occupy hostile land
Minor Functions
1) Disaster relief
2) Security of military installations
Military intelligence is a tool that supports major functions.
I would rather have a slightly increased police presence in airports rather than a police state. I have a feeling that no matter how many extra police in a police state your friend would still not feel safe. She can join a support group or attend counselling if the friend so wishes. It's cheaper and more beneficial than a police state.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 10:04:29 [Permalink]
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By the way, can someone smack Falwell from me? Its not easy getting across the Atlantic these days.
Love to help you, but shit splatters.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 10:27:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Are you suggesting that in such a search, as we overturn stones, that we skip a few for fear of what lies underneath? The way I see it, a series of foreign policy blunders in the 80's led to the Gulf War which finally led to bin Laden's crusade against America...Should we not discuss blind hatred and attacks towards Arab-Americans? Mosques have been fire bombed, threats have been made and there are reports of two racially motivated killings of innocent Americans and you find a problem with that???
Yes. When there are reports of the racially motivated killings of 5000+ innocent Americansthat you want to blame the victims for.
I don't see that you are "looking under stones" just because you have your head in the sand.
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 11:04:08 [Permalink]
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Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans Feb. 1998
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, in excess of 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. ---fatwah Feb. 1998
These are the reasons for the ‘Jihad' propagated by Osama bin Laden and others. Mr. Laden is reportedly worth $300million or less, he chooses to live a simple life with his soldiers in Afghanistan. Well not too ‘simple', he does raid neighboring villages, has no compunction to charging a 20% tax on exported opium and takes no prisoners. While separating the true believers from the regular soldiers, providing them with tactical training and sending them out on missions of their own choice, which he merely finances.
IMO his long term goals run something like this: Remove America from the middle east, spread his brand of religion throughout the region, take over Saudi Arabia, and after all the Muslim countries are united defeat Israel. Interesting to note that he does not state the over throw of Israel as his first objective, merely his last. This shows some ability to reason on his part, leading most to conclude that he is not ‘crazy' but fanatical.
The inability or unwillingness to separate religion from government is one of the biggest hurtles confronting Muslim countries, after all suffrage never would have had a chance in this country without a strong popular support. I may be wrong though.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 20:17:42 [Permalink]
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The Worlds Condolences
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet.
James, this is the first I've sat and really cried. I've sent this on to my friends still on active duty. Many of them are overseas right now.
Lisa
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 20:37:45 [Permalink]
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My motivation is the search for answers.
Here's a little theory. The Middle East is awash in oil that generates vast profits. Yet the majority of the population is impoverished. Is it just possible that this has something to do with tyranical and self serving rulers who keep the wealth for themselves and give their citizens martyrdom and 70 virgins in the holy war against the Great Satan as a distraction from the real source of their problems?
Did we support Afghani resistance against the Soviet Union? Yes we did. We were trying to keep Communism from spreading. You remember communism? Joe Stalin murdering 10 or 20 million of his own people? Pol Pot slaughtering close to a third of the population of Cambodia? China's "Cultural Revolution"? Is it just possible that some of our past leaders thought that stopping that particular evil from spreading might be a priority? Do you think they were wrong?
Have you forgotten that America's traditional approach to foreign affairs prior to WWII was to keep as far away from old world affairs as possible and we still got dragged into both world wars? You want someone to blame? Blame the Japanese for getting us into WWII so that we ended up being the only player on the field against the Communist. If they hadn't attacked, maybe we would have stayed out and let the Naxis have Europe. Then they could have killed all the Jews and Isreal would never have been founded and I'm sure that would have made the Middle East a much more peaceful place (but don't bet on it). You see how this game works @tomic? If I spent enough time working at it, I could probably put the blame on some foolish policy of the Holy Roman Empire.
Our past leaders didn't have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight. They were trying to figure out a game where the rules change almost daily. You really think you could have done better?
And just which country are you planning to hold up as a model of how we should have done everything? Russia? China? ANY middle eastern government in the last 10,000 years?
You have a right to question and criticize past American foreign policy. This is a free country and if I have any say in the matter it always will be. But you could at least have the tact to wait until the bodies have been burried before you start saying it's all our fault.
P.S. One more possible theory on who's to blame. Maybe, just possibly, it's the god damned terrorists who did it.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 22:10:48 [Permalink]
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P.S. One more possible theory on who's to blame. Maybe, just possibly, it's the god damned terrorists who did it.
Ok, don't hit me, I haven't read all the posts here thoughly so in case someone already mentioned this, I'm sorry.
Today while walking across the campus of Los Angeles Valley City College a young man was setting up a table and putting out papers. I stopped to see what it was.
A theory about the WTC, one I hadn't thought of, but of course, why not?!!
The guy was handing out info from Lyndon Larouche. He started telling me about the World Bank and who owned them. I didn't have time to listen to anymore but if you hadn't heard, it's the Rothchilds who ordered the buildings destroyed.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2001 : 01:06:04 [Permalink]
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I'm sorry Espritch, but "they did it too" is not a good defense. Try to use that in a court and see how far it gets you. I don't need to hold up any country as a model. There is right and wrong, triumph and error. The war in Afghanistan and the arming of the Afghans has nothing to do with bin Laden's beef against the US. I don't care about Rome or World War I or II. The attacks on Sptember 11th didn't come out of the blue with no motivations. There were things that happened that led to bin Ladens personal issues and the Islamic fundamentalism he was able to use as a tool and instrument in his war.
I don't find it at all a stretch to throw out Iran-Contra and the arming of Iraq. That led to the Gulf war which led to a permanent presence in Saudi Arabia which totally pissed Osama bin Laden off...
I am not using ridiculous examples like slavery or ancient history. I think I have showed relevance in specific recent events. 10 years ago is not that long ago and to dismiss you can dismiss these policies as irrelevant so easily?
What Greg said about our intelligence community focusing on industrial espianage instead of protecting the population of the United States is practically criminal. Do we need protection against a French biotech firm or do we need protection against terrorists??? I can't even blame Bush for that one. You have to point this at the previous administration. I hope the present one rectifies that and succeeding administrations don't forget it. If you don't divert essential resources especially if they are limited. Bottom line: The government let us down this time. Maybe they couldn't have stopped it but more of a focus on real enemies may well have helped.
What I see is a bunch of people marching around, waving flags, singing anthems and crying into a smoking crater. Well we all came out and said how sad is is but how long does that go on and how constructive is it? Real answers aren't going to be found that way.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2001 : 19:19:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
The Worlds Condolences
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet.
James, this is the first I've sat and really cried. I've sent this on to my friends still on active duty. Many of them are overseas right now.
I hope you had plenty of tissues. 
I, at first, thought that all the countries were mourning with us just because it was a shock to everyone around the world. But I learned last night that people from 62 countries are possibly missing in WTC rubble. I know we have their backing in going after bin Laden, but, as I've been saying since last Wednesday, we gotta do it right. IOW, we can't go off half-cocked after bin Laden. If we do, and take out innnocents in the process, we're gonna lose in the end.
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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