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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 09/18/2001 : 19:40:49 [Permalink]
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I'm sorry Espritch, but "they did it too" is not a good defense.
So you agree that past mistakes by the US in no way justify Mr Bin Laden blowing up our embassies or hijacking and crashing commercial airliners into skyscrapers. Glad to see we are in agreement on that.
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The government let us down this time. Maybe they couldn't have stopped it but more of a focus on real enemies may well have helped.
It still might. So let's do that. Let's concentrate on our real enemies.
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What I see is a bunch of people marching around, waving flags, singing anthems and crying into a smoking crater.
Maybe that is because the crater is still smoking and there are still unrecovered bodies in there. And some of the relatives, friends, and loved ones of those bodies might just have a legitimate reason to still be grieving.
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Well we all came out and said how sad it is
How very generous of us.
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but how long does that go on and how constructive is it? Real answers aren't going to be found that way.
Absolutely. Let's stop crying in our beer and deal with the problem at hand. The problem is that a terrorist has decided to target America and has repeatedly attacked us and kill thousands of American citizens as well as foreign nationals. So, we can either sit around figuring out how it's really our fault or we can commit whatever resources are needed to bring Osama and his cronies to justice and make sure they never do this again. So which approach do you think is really more constructive?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2001 : 19:47:03 [Permalink]
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Espritch, if you have read any of my other posts you will have noticed that I have been behind bringing the perpetrators to justice. I have never said that they were excused for what they did. Just as the US is responsible for it's past actions so are they. Oh, unless it's in the past now so we can forget it because it's history.
You are reading things into my comments that I never said or intended. Those that need to may continue to grieve. I'm sure for many it will last their entire lifetimes and for good reasons.
I fully intend to concentrate on the real enemies but sometimes the real enemy has been us. By this I mean that we set into motion the events that led to the bombing.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2001 : 02:32:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dog_Ed:
Kind of a bastardly dilemma, isn't it. It could be that the only way to effectively fight terrorism is by creating a clandestine arm of the military which uses the same tactics as the terrorists--car bombs, snipers, local criminal elements, etc. And then we end up supporting something like the death squads in El Salvador or the foul murdering military in Guatamala, and it's so offensive we discontinue the program...and we're back where we started.
Back just briefly to a statement I made earlier, that perhaps the only way to deal effectively with terrorism is by turning their tactics back on them. Two quick points:
1. If Afghanistan defies the world and continues to harbor bin Laden, it may be that only a full-scale war with Afghanistan would be able to dislodge him. As the Soviet Union found, the terrain and people can make that a very bloody proposition.
2. Osama bin Laden aside, I would hope that this tragedy spurs us to fight terrorism on a continuing basis. Full-scale military operations might be less effective than the sort of semi-secret strike force that Israel has put in place.
Now I'm not saying we should throw up our hands and say it's an impossible task. Not at all. But we must (imho) keep our options open and not underestimate the difficulty of what we must do. I would not want ten times as many young Americans to die fighting in Afghanistan as died in the WTC tragedy, especially if our goals can be accomplished otherwise.
Terrorism is a very loaded term that brings many thoughts to mind. I think that to better explain my views, we should go into a basic military breakdown of what happened last week (and is still happening to many rescue workers and defense people).
Many of you may have heard the term “asymmetrical warfare” being thrown around the last a lot these last few days. When two different nations with comparable tactics and values go to war with one another, this can be referred to as a symmetrical match up. This is somewhat backwards because war at its most fundamental level is not symmetrical in the least. During the US revolution, British troops would stand tall and exposed during gunfights while the Americans shot from the trees and brush. This is asymmetrical warfare and an illustration of its beneficial results to the side that exploits the weaknesses in rigid methods.
Before huge nations and armies began roaming the world and protecting the interests of those who combined to form them, there were only small tribes and cities that would constantly attack one another for various reasons. This was asymmetrical warfare at its most fundamental and ruthless level. In the modern ages, huge superpowers have overruled a number of the smaller conflicts in the world (although many feuds remained a plague) and maintained various levels of symmetry. But technology has raised the level of communication and destruction to such a degree that asymmetrical warfare has returned on another level, which we call terrorism. Certainly not capable of destroying the superpowers, but Terrorism is a kind of warfare nonetheless.
How this applies to the modern day and the United State's Defense is relatively simple. If the United States is to defend it and its interests in the world, we must drop down into the mud and start fighting our enemies on their terms. Not that we need to or should mirror their actions, but that we at least need to find asymmetrical methods of our own to combat them. Those who love to criticize the actions of our nation in its past need to stop and ask whether it was justified before they blindly condemn it.
When our defense community was out overthrowing governments and committing other similar actions, this was asymmetrical warfare (the |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2001 : 03:06:39 [Permalink]
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Those who love to criticize the actions of our nation in its past need to stop and ask whether it was justified before they blindly condemn it.
When our defense community was out overthrowing governments and committing other similar actions, this was asymmetrical warfare (the essence of war) being fought for us. Often times this was done with actions that cannot be justified nor should be, but I do not believe that one can deny that something needed to be done.
I think it's our duty to criticize the government when it was wrong or committed atrocities. Speaking in generalities like this does not make the criminal acts go away. Some policies were just stupid. Maybe the people behind it had the best intentions but it wasn't all essential. A lot of Philipinos are still peeved about the US support for Marcos. Really, the list goes on and on. Just because we want a friendly government meant we had to keep slimeballs like these in power? Weren't there more American style governments we could have fostered instead of authoritarian dictatorships. Sure, things needed to be done but people ended up being pissed off and pissed off people do some things you aren't going to like. You talk about justification like it explains it all. These are the same arguments the terrorists use. In a way, you are validating their acts.
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I believe it can be argued that all terrorism is wrong on a certain level, but there are perfectly reasonable ways to gauge whether it is justified or not whenever it happens. All of the actions of war that I can think of result in a form of terror, while only certain ones are specifically designed to do it. For instance, when we dropped the atom bomb on Japan we were attempting to put terror into them in order to end the war. There are ways to see if this was a justified action or not.
The terrorists who committed the atrocious action a week ago were not justified on any basis that I can think of. Sure we aren't perfect and have made mistakes, but they are inconsequential compared to what has now occurred against us. They murdered blood that was innocent of any real action against them, and use totally unacceptable reasons to justify it. This why I say that we are the good guys here, and why I am trying to combat the notion that the US brought this on itself in any justified fashion.
Let me see if I have this right....when we do it it's good and when they do it it's bad? How ironic, the terrorists feel the same way.
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Of course I believe that we could have been smarter and more ethical, but even the old testament of the bible says that an eye shall be paid for an eye. One cannot justify a death sentence over petty thievery, and thus the United States of America was nowhere near deserving of what it received from those fanatics. I believe that only God has the righteous authority to condemn the evil of sin in general, and even then the bible speaks of His longsuffering mercy. I believe that symmetrical warfare carried out by the US, whether you want to call it freedom fighting or terrorism, was justifiable more often then not. We are the good guys; we aren't perfect; but we do our best.
You know, if I restered a name called Osama bin Laden and posted that it would be kind if funny. You see the irony yet? |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2001 : 05:43:13 [Permalink]
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I don't blame the US entirely but most problem solving methods involve identifying the problem in order to fix it. That was really touching but rhetoric like that isn't going to do anyone any good. Talking about these issues is about getting to the motivation of terrorists in order to understand them. Maybe then we can come up with a way to end the cycle of escalation. I'd say we're somewhere in the middle of of that cycle. I'd really hate to see the end
I think that Bin Laden is motivated by power. The problem lies in the fact that a significant number of people who are not motivated that way view him as heroic. Bin Laden uses the hate generated by our (as well as the Soviets) foreign policies to prop himself up as some sort of soldier of God. I think what we need to do is to understand and respect Middle Eastern cultures and get our fingers out of their business. It's too late now for what's happened, but after we eliminate this terrorist organization, we must determine what new courses of action should be taken withrespect to foreign policy. Otherwise, this will not end.
Greg.
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2001 : 01:12:42 [Permalink]
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I think it's our duty to criticize the government when it was wrong or committed atrocities. Speaking in generalities like this does not make the criminal acts go away. Some policies were just stupid. Maybe the people behind it had the best intentions but it wasn't all essential. A lot of Philipinos are still peeved about the US support for Marcos. Really, the list goes on and on. Just because we want a friendly government meant we had to keep slimeballs like these in power? Weren't there more American style governments we could have fostered instead of authoritarian dictatorships. Sure, things needed to be done but people ended up being pissed off and pissed off people do some things you aren't going to like. You talk about justification like it explains it all. These are the same arguments the terrorists use. In a way, you are validating their acts.
I certainly agree with that, but you become a hypocrite when you blow actions so far out of proportion that you make it sound as if the U.S. blew up its own buildings. We didn't deserve to have thousands of our people killed because we went around and made some stupid and immoral mistakes. It is idiotic and nonsensical to believe that we brought this on ourselves when even Osama doesn't use any of these actions as his justification, with the possible exception of Saudi Arabia. He says that he hates the United State's way of life and our traditions. His movement will not rest until the US government is destroyed or replaced by an Islamic regime that follows their beliefs.
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Let me see if I have this right....when we do it it's good and when they do it it's bad? How ironic, the terrorists feel the same way.
That's right @tomic. Good boy, you get a star! Sometimes people do disagree about what is right and what is wrong.
Now, here is your extra credit question: Should we let others attack us without fear of retribution, just because we feel they are entitled to dissenting positions on various issues?
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Of course I believe that we could have been smarter and more ethical, but even the old testament of the bible says that an eye shall be paid for an eye. One cannot justify a death sentence over petty thievery, and thus the United States of America was nowhere near deserving of what it received from those fanatics. I believe that only God has the righteous authority to condemn the evil of sin in general, and even then the bible speaks of His longsuffering mercy. I believe that symmetrical warfare carried out by the US, whether you want to call it freedom fighting or terrorism, was justifiable more often then not. We are the good guys; we aren't perfect; but we do our best.
You know, if I restered a name called Osama bin Laden and posted that it would be kind if funny. You see the irony yet?
I see the humor but not the irony. If I took statements from secular humanists and posted them as if they came from Osama's lips, that would be funny as well. But, you seem to believe that only ideologies that you disagree with would be interchangeabl |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2001 : 09:12:51 [Permalink]
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Websters Dictionary:
hypocrisy - pretending to be what one is not, or to feel what one does not; esp., a pretense of virtue, piety, etc.
I guess there's no need to even respond to you if you are just going to put words in my mouth I never said Tiptup. You are having a discussion all your own. No need for me to say anything. If you go back and look, no really look you will see that I have supported retribution. I just see that it won't solve anything except to drive these folks further underground which will help a bit but could eventually just make them harder to track.
I wish i could find it amusing, though the irony is still there, that you use the same reasoning and even the same words as Osama bin Laden. You could be him.
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If you want to believe that our common sense and morality can be overruled simply because others might have different versions of these truths (twisted in this case), then why don't you start your own country where you can be ruled by what everyone else tells you to do. As for the U.S. of A.,
This is as anti-American a thing to say as I have ever heard. America, I thought, was a free country where people could have opinions other than your own. You scare me Tiptup.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2001 : 20:44:28 [Permalink]
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I fully intend to concentrate on the real enemies but sometimes the real enemy has been us. By this I mean that we set into motion the events that led to the bombing.
The assertion that we brought this on ourselves would seem to imply that there was a course of action we could have taken (or not taken) that would have resulted in us not being a target of Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists. This would mean that either we could have prevented the rise of extreamist Moslem Fundamentalism or else found a way to live in harmony with it.
As to the first possibility, I think it is highly unlikely. A lot of things have helped to create Islamic Fundamentalism: regional poverty and disparity of wealth, the establishment of Isreal and resulting expulsion of the Palistinians, warfare between different sects and tribes, anti western resentment as a result of the European colonialism, Soviet expansionism, etc. While some of our policies may have contributed to the situation, the reality is that most of the problems of the region have roots extending way back before we ever got involved. At best, we just stirred an already boiling pot.
So given that it is very unlikely that we could have prevented the rise of the Fundamentalists, the question becomes: can we get along with them?
To answer that, you only need consider Osama Bin Ladin's basic agenda: Remove all western influences from the Middle East, impose a Taliban style Islamic Fundamentalist Theocracy on the region, and drive Isreal into the sea. Where in this agenda do you see any common ground?
So, no, I do not agree that we brought this on ourselves. Just because our policies tend to pissed off Bin Ladin doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong. Would you really want the US to adopt the kind of foreign policy that would please that murderous fanatic?
You asked me if I thought that history doesn't matter. It matters only if we can learn something from it that we can apply to the present so as to avoid repeating past mistakes. What was done can't be undone. What matters is what we do next. If you have any useful suggestions based on your interpretation of history, by all means share them.
Personally, I suspect your reason for insisting on American culpability is that you think it might lead to more introspection and make people less likely to act hastily out of anger and end up making a bad situation worse by killing a lot more innocent people. If that is your purpose, then we really aren't as far apart on this as you seem to think.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2001 : 20:58:41 [Permalink]
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Personally, I suspect your reason for insisting on American culpability is that you think it might lead to more introspection and make people less likely to act hastily out of anger and end up making a bad situation worse by killing a lot more innocent people. If that is your purpose, then we really aren't as far apart on this as you seem to think.
Actually my intention is to point out some errors in the hope that we don't repeat them but I also don't want more innocent people killed. I am going to assume that some will but hope it's kept to an absolute minimum.
First, we don't even know that Osama bin Laden was behind this. The only court he was tried on was in the media and by their standards we are all guilty of something. They just need to get around to reporting it. I've read reports of one of these terrorists meeting with an Iraqi intelligence contact. That's got to raise a few eyebrows. There's no shortage of people with motives in the middle east and it's not all based on religious fundamentalism. Do you think a Palestinian that lost their entire family, home and way of life to the Israelis needs to bring up religion? That's just an example, of course.
What if it was bin Laden? Could anything have stopped it? Consider this...some of the worst terrorist attacks in recent years against American targets were masterminded or funded by him. If you took him out of the mix you would have a lot more Americans alive. His issue is the permanent American military presence in Saudi Arabia. We're there because of Iraq. We had to fight Iraq because we built them up to fight Iran. We did that because of our old grudge against the Iranians after the hotage business of the late 70's and getting our asses booted from there because we backed the Shah.
I think things could have been done differently, yes. Much differently.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2001 : 10:47:18 [Permalink]
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A few thoughts. Bin Laden and the rulers of Afghanistan are not popular in that county. In fact, most of Islam is distancing itself from these guys. The Taliban has committed atrocities against the people of Afghanistan. They have there own brand of religious fanaticism that really goes beyond even the most conservative interpretations of the Koran. In short, the people of Afghanistan hate them. They have few freedoms (none for woman or people of other faiths) and they are treated very poorly, to say the least. Also, it's an exaggeration that they are armed to the teeth. At this point we pretty much know what they have, or have left, as the case may be.
I do believe that the War against these thugs will be mostly a special ops war. Take out Bin Liden and a few of the leaders and the people of Afghanistan will finish the job. My guess is that is exactly the plan.
Also, all the finger pointing in the world is not going to change a thing. We have done bad things and they have done bad things and that is that. Hopefully we will learn a lesson here. Hopefully they (whoever they are) will too. I wouldn't hold my breath for either. For most countrys, the interest of the country comes first.
My hope is that as the world gets smaller the need to get along will become more of an imparitive. It's a lot to hope for.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2001 : 11:39:00 [Permalink]
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I have heard a lot of encouraging things about what Colin Powell is proposing. I think he has the best ideas I have heard yet and if he gets his way we may be able to actually do something without starting a holy war and ultimately see more Americans die.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2001 : 11:46:02 [Permalink]
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http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11522
"This is not to say that any of these things, no matter how irresponsible or even criminal warrant an act the likes of what we saw September 11th. But there is something to be said for understanding why no one likes you. If all the other kids in the sandbox think you're a thug and a bully, then after a while you'd best stop trying to beat them all into submission, or thinking that they are the problem, and instead, begin to turn some of that analysis inward. That's what you would do, anyway, if you wanted to actually get to the bottom of the conflict on the playground. If, on the other hand, your main concern were showing what a badass you were, then maybe this wouldn't matter much to you at all. And in that case, you would set out to show those other kids who was boss, who was king of the hill. You would continue to provoke them, to attack them, and then act shocked when they hit back.
That kind of behavior is unbecoming enough when children engage in it. When adults with explosives do it, the immature becomes deadly. This is no game. There is no "winner" despite the blustery rhetoric of our frat-boy-in-chief. And unless we begin to fundamentally alter the way we as a nation operate around the world, we are in for many years of violence, and counterviolence, and empty platitudes, and flag waving, and body bags.
And if that happens, it won't merely be the fault of those who attack us from outside, but also the fault of those who were the enemies of justice, equality, and peace on the inside of the American empire. There will be more than enough blame to go around."
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2001 : 17:14:15 [Permalink]
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I agree with Kil here. The entire concept of laying blame is irrelevant at this juncture.
But playing nice right now is only opening yourself to more attacks of this kind. Religious fundamentalism is irrational. Look at what happened, 18 men with fundamental beliefs maintained over as long as 8-10 years away from the bed where it grew killed themselves for allah. Bin Laden would never have been backed had the former Soviet Union not tried entering into Afghanistan in 1979. Prior to the Soviet invasion attempt Afghanistan enjoyed one of the most progressive Islamic societies in the Middle East.
At the time the US was still in the Cold War mentality and stopping communism at all costs. Unfortunately those decisions are now biting us on the ass. But your looking at a breeding ground of hatred, unreasonable hatred. There is no way to reason with those who will not listen.
So, we may have been a contributor to this mess. So what, the government does have the responsibility to make the best decisions it can in the best interests of it's populace and it's and it's populaces interests. Um, do we really want bin Laden to have access to WMD that probably still exist in Iraq. It's my guess that Hussein or his regime would have little compunction against giving such weapons to bin Laden or whomever would be in bin Ladens place had the Soviets not invaded Afghanistan and the US not sponsered covert ops through bin Laden.
No one in the military ever wants to go to war (with the rare exception - but they learn quickly). Whether you like it or not the US must protect its interests. The deaths of over 6000 innocents is enough of a reason for us to attempt the capture/death of bin Laden. Though, his capture would certainly mean there would be no martyr in bin Laden.
This is a war, as has been said before, as much as it was when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Like it or not. This has to be a smarter war. This will not be like Operations Desert Sheild/Storm. It something that must be done tho. We've made a mess, it's bit us on the ass, now we've got to clean it up.
bin Laden is the prime suspect, we've asked for a peaceful resolution in bring bin Laden to justice. We've been told no, or let us try him. That is unacceptable. Could he receive a fair trial in the US - probably not - but there are other countries that could try him.
Regardless of what has gone in the past, or is current - there is no, absolutely no excuse or reason for such an act of blind hatred.
Does the US need to look at its foreign policy - yes, as much as any other government needs to. Why is it the US that the Palestinians hate? Palestine was a British colony. We've sold weapons to Israel - so, we've sold weapons to other countries. Their enemies seem capable of recognizing the enemy as the person bombing them. It's easier to hate that which is different, that which you do not understand. Their racial/ethnic/cultural hatred of the US and its citizens is as baseless as any other prejudice.
My opinion, lock all world leaders in a room and let them fight it out with words. But failing that, then it's time for military action.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2001 : 17:28:56 [Permalink]
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Who's talking about being nice, at least to the terrorists? Not me nor anyone else on this board so far as I have seen.
I will continue to look at past policies for answers and so that we might not make any additional mistakes. Trish, you spoke of cleaning up a mess....the Gulf War was a mess cleanup. here we are cleaning up another mess. My point is to look at past errors so that maybe, just maybe we don't have as many messes in the future.These messes cost American lives and resources. Personally, I think not making messes in the first place is the ultimate defense.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2001 : 17:52:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
My point is to look at past errors so that maybe, just maybe we don't have as many messes in the future...Personally, I think not making messes in the first place is the ultimate defense.
Unfortunately, governments are comprised of humans, which are generally short-sighted fallable people. We're primarily screwed by our own fallabilities as a species. Does that mean that we can't get beyond that? Don't know....
I understand the concept: Those who fail to remember the past are doomed to repeat it. That, I think, is the premise you're operating from. I understand that. But, now at this point, we must set aside what we've screwed up and analysis (emotions will interfere with understanding) and do what must be done. After time has healed wounds and cooler heads prevail: then is the time to stir the ashes of the past and wonder and consider and look with hindsight at what happened, how it happened, why it happened and was there anything that could have been done to prevent it. Then, look to how can we repair that damage.
We have to have to to heal. Anger and rage are a part of the healing process - only the begining stages. I'm still stuck at shock I think. I've felt no rage, no hurt, no anger, nothing - I haven't even cried about this. For me there is time enough for that...later.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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