|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2001 : 10:32:57 [Permalink]
|
So I received a phone call from my son, the NYC Cop, at 3:30 (PT) this morning. His search and rescue shift had just ended and he wanted to talk.
I asked him why they weren't giving out casualty counts. He said that they "weren't being coy, there was just no way to know." The place was covered in "hamburger". People's heads, legs, intestines every where you look. The buildings were stainless steel and glass. They shattered when they collapsed creating millions of "knives." There were screams coming out of the ground all night long. There had been a huge underground complex under the WTC going hundreds of feet down.
One of the cops who was running from the collapse--those "Independence Day" clouds you saw on CNN--was transfixed by a length of plumbing, like a butterfly pinned to the sidewalk..
A Fireman rushing into WTC 2 was killed when a person on an upper floor caught on fire and threw themselves out a window landed on him. While the FD Chaplain was kneeling there giving them the last rites the earth opened up and swallowed them, just before the tower fell on top of them.
Somewhere around 300 of the rescuers are dead.
The recovery team was loading dead bodies into taxis by the middle of the night.
Looking back at some of the posts in this thread, I don't think that the gravity of the situation has reached many of you. All this talk about being fair to people, making sure that we don't bomb the wrong group. Warnings of look what it's like in Israel.
It's too late. We are at war.
These people hate Americans far worse than they hate Jews-get that into your head.
I say, if we wipe out the wrong terrorist group, bomb the wrong harboring country, we say ahh, gee wiz, and go on to the next. I would propose that we start alphabetically. By the time we get to Z we will have surely gotten the right ones. Allah can sort it all out as to who gets the 70 wives in paradise and who doesn't.
What, are we afraid that they won't think well of us? They already call us the great Satan. They already have murdered thousands of our people.
All right, if we're Satan then let's unleash Hell.
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
 |
|
|
tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 11:26:07 [Permalink]
|
quote:
You left out option 4.
4) Limit the amount of gas each customer can buy at one time so that supplies are not depleted by people in a panic.
Should the station owners have this technological capability, they should have done exactly that. AFIAK, many cash prepay gas systems do have this capability, although I dunno whether pay at the pump stations typically do. Nor do I know whether this tactic alone would have proved sufficient.
Nevertheless, I think that my two main points stand. (1) Allowing the free market to set the price based on supply and demand helps to insure that the supply is more evenly distributed across the demand. (2) The people who were unnessessarily hoarding gas supplies (leaving others like me hanging in the wind) are somewhat to blame.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
|
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 12:00:34 [Permalink]
|
Hey all, went and kinda hid out for a bit last night with a few friends.
Slater, glad your family is ok. Was expecting a call yesterday from my brother to come watch his son because he was called in. (He's on the SWAT team and emergency response team in his department.)
I've heard people talking about an all out strike carried out against bin Laden and Afghanistan. I've heard people wanting to go out and find those who are Muslim here in the US because they must have been in with the terrorists. About the hate of those who are Muslim, that is something that can not be considered. That is tatamount to what was done to those who were of Japanese descent during WWII, many of whom were loyal to the US.
As far as Afghanistan and bin Laden are concerned. I think we need to look at what occurred between the former Soviet Union and Afghanistan. The USSR committed considerable resources to this because they wanted/needed a southern port. A war against Afghanistan fought on Afghani soil will be a dirty war.
There isn't much that can be done against Afghanistan by pressure from the UN. UN sanctions are in place against Afghanistan because of the Taliban and bin Laden. In addition, Afghanistan owes bin Laden a *debt of gratitude* for fighting with the mujahideen against the USSR.
Where do my feeling lie with this - especially since a lot of the response to this is emotive - yeah I want to see the hell bombed out of the bastards. That's a knee jerk reaction. We need to step back and decide tho, whether we retaliate in kind or whether we use some other means. Do we go to war in both the traditional sense and against terrorism.
People talk about giving up freedoms to protect the populace. How that's ok. I don't want to give up my freedoms. I'd rather that personal responsibility for my safety and proceed with the understanding that I am a target, then proceed under the watchful eye of another.
My question is, why had no one claimed responsibility and nations are coming forward saying we didn't do it. Governor Owens here in CO said that a Japanese general is quoted as saying 'I fear we've woken a sleeping giant.' and that sentiment applies here. These terrorists have woken a sleeping giant. I think that they haven't woken us but shaken us of our complacency. I just hope that this does not push us farther to the right religiously - which it could do. Then we have a trully terrible situation - a war based on gawd.
Oh, @tomic and Lisa - hope you all hear from your friends and relatives in NYC. Hope they are well.
Oh well, needed to expell some of those thoughts on paper (virtual anyway).
Peace all.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
|
|
|
Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 12:07:03 [Permalink]
|
Yes, finally got through to the relatives around NYC. Everyone is okay, just scared as hell. Ed's brother-in-law is a surgeon, and doesn't expect to get anything like sleep in the near future. His practice is out on Long Island, and they've started taking casualties there. His wife is a retired nurse/physical therepist, and she doesn't expect to see her house for at least a week.
Slater, thanks for your post. I'm sure this was painful information for your son to pass on.
Lisa
|
|
|
|
Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 13:07:25 [Permalink]
|
I think the fact that no terrorist group has claimed responsibility fits bin Laden's MO. If we're finding evidence linking this to him already then I suspect we'll find a lot more evidence. They weren't careful. We will uncover their tracks and pin them tight.
Slater, Slater, that's horrible. I agree, it is physically, morally, and psychologically an act of war. Right now many of us are thinking from rage and horror. But I maintain that even in war we must keep our humanity. The Geneva conventions on war were formulated in an attempt to contain the savagery of war, like pus in a cyst, as much as possible.
Terrorists do not pay the Geneva Conventions any mind, the jackals. But we must. We must consider our means of warfare not because we are legally bound to do so but because we are morally bound to do so. We are the humans, and if we kill carelessly then we become more like the jackals.
Slater, and others from NYC and Washington DC, I have never seen anything like what you have experienced. I do not mean to minimize nor trivialize your experience, nor do I ignore the fact that your feelings and thoughts are not simple, unconsidered, or faulty. But I will continue to argue for a careful and sure response that minimizes noncombatant death and suffering.
Jeez. You guys in NYC and DC take care. It sounds like people are pulling together magnificently. There is more horror yet to come as the rescue efforts proceed. I am filled with sorrow. Good luck to you all.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes"
Edited by - Dog_Ed on 09/12/2001 19:00:08 |
|
|
|
Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 14:19:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I thank all the gods in the pantheon for the buisness owner that had the audacity to fight against the consumer rush to stockpile at the expense of others.
tu quoque.
Greg.
|
|
|
|
rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 17:29:59 [Permalink]
|
Slater:
I'm Happy to hear that your family is ok.
When I heard of the disaster at work I immediately thaught of you, because I have heard you talk of your associations with New York City.
To those who are still waiting for answers from family and friends, my thaughts are with you. I sincerely hope America nails them bastards.
"What would chairs look like if our knees bent the other way" |
|
|
|
Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:13:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Governor Owens here in CO said that a Japanese general is quoted as saying 'I fear we've woken a sleeping giant.' and that sentiment applies here.
One of my most favorite quotes (from one of my "heros" (yes, we were at war with him, i know :P) He was a Admiral, Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto. He is the one that drew up the plans for bombing Pearl Harbor even though he was against it. He had gone to school in the US and knew that this was exactly the wrong thing to do. But did it anyway because of his duty to his emperor and country. He was killed in 1943 when the plane that was carrying him was shot down by P-38s.
The actual quote (or at least its most popular translation) is "I fear all we have done is to wake a sleeping giant and fill him with a horrible rage".
You would think people would learn from history...
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
|
|
|
tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:19:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I fear that the most likely outcome will be that our government simply uses these attacks as a pretext to lash out at whomever they consider the enemy du jour, rather than base their response on demonstrable facts.
...
Bush is now facing a path laden with traps for an uncritical thinker. If he manages to avoid acting out of prejudice, or being seduced into lashing out at people or viewpoints which are inconvenient for him and his backers then even I will have to concede that he will have achieved some genuine stature. I'm not ready to bet on it, though.
Finally, to everyone who thinks that indiscriminate slaughter is an appropriate response- it's a pity that you and your humanity were on such uneasy terms that you're so easily divorced.
Surely a lack of critical thinking could lead to bad reasoning and jumping to false conclusions, but in this case the obvious conclusion is the correct one. Ask you self the following questions:
1) What terrorist organizations have threatened direct attacks on the U.S.?
2) What terrorist organizations have a history of suicide bombing missions?
3) What terrorist organizations have the time and resources to pull this off?
a. Training pilots for precision flying of heavy aircraft
b. Creating at least a dozen false identities in the U.S.
c. Coordinating multiple synchronized hijackings
I think you will find that the possible answers to form a very, very short list. The culprits are most likely part of a particular transnational terrorist network with roots throughout the middle east.
At this point retaliation is not a matter of mere prejudice or lashing out. Certain people have committed murderous acts of war, financially and politically backed by various nation states. Should our representatives declare war upon these nations, with an end goal of unconditional surrender, they would be perfectly justified in doing so. Should we destroy their nation in the process, so be it.
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/12/2001 18:22:44 |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:24:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Should our representatives declare war upon these nations, with the end goal of unconditional surrender, they would be perfectly justified in doing so. Should we destroy their nation in the process, so be it.
A lot of people assume Afghanistan and want to bomb the hell out of it. That will fit right in with Afghanistan. They have had weekly bombings for 20 years and frankly there isn't much left to bomb. Sure it will make us feel good but it's just par for the course there.
In other words...whatever.
As harsh as that sounds I think a reality check now and again is in order.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:27:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
It's too late. We are at war.
These people hate Americans far worse than they hate Jews-get that into your head.
I say, if we wipe out the wrong terrorist group, bomb the wrong harboring country, we say ahh, gee wiz, and go on to the next. I would propose that we start alphabetically. By the time we get to Z we will have surely gotten the right ones. Allah can sort it all out as to who gets the 70 wives in paradise and who doesn't.
What, are we afraid that they won't think well of us? They already call us the great Satan. They already have murdered thousands of our people.
All right, if we're Satan then let's unleash Hell.
Whether or not Jesus existed, I'm with Slater on this one.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
|
|
|
|
Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:35:09 [Permalink]
|
There is a Option number 5 for the gas thing-
5- Close your doors and wait a couple days (or even just a single day) to let people calm down.
My grandfather owned a gas station eons ago (just after WWII). He wasn't really faced with anything like this (the had strict rationing then), but knowing his personality I know this is exactly what he would have done in this situation today.
Every thing is back to normal in KC (which for some reason went really nuts, some were selling it for near 7 bucks a gallon), including prices.
I filled up this morning (I was on fumes, I waited yesterday and didn't get gas, didn't want to add to the problem), no lines, price was up just a little.
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
|
|
|
tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:40:16 [Permalink]
|
quote:
As harsh as that sounds I think a reality check now and again is in order.
Absolutely. The reality here is we've been attacked in an unprecedented act of unprovoked war. We must massively retaliate now to prevent future attacks. I did not mention any particular nation, since there are at least a half dozen which share the blame, we ought not single out any single one for retribution. Unless and until we reign terror upon cities throughout the middle east, wherever any terrorists have ever been given support and succor, we will not prevent future attacks.
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/12/2001 18:42:38 |
|
|
|
Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:59:46 [Permalink]
|
I don't know what else to say.
We spent the last two days at school trying to help the students through this...these feelings of vulnerability, frustration, anger...it's all just numbing |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 19:01:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
wherever any terrorists have ever been given support and succor, we will not prevent future attacks.
Even more interesting. So you propose to retaliate against France, Canada and some other allies as well? man, you really are pissed.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
