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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2001 : 19:31:55 [Permalink]
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I agree that this is a war. But even a war has to have strategy and goals or it will be lost. I think one of the main advantages that terrorists have had in recent years is that they have safe places to train, to plan, and to coordinate their actions. This must change. I don't think that even the US can single handedly take out every State that sponsors terrorism all at once. But we can give those states a reason to think twice before they allow their own soil to be used in this manner.
We need to concentrate on the State most directly linked with the perpetrators. The goal would not be to destroy the country but to remove the government from power. I know that this would most probably involve civilian casualties. It is likely to cost more American lives as well. But that is the nature of war.
Just bombing some selected targets will accomplish nothing. Terrorists don't care about their own lives. They certainly don't care about the lives of others. The heads of the nations that sponsor them don't really care about the lives of their citizens either. But they often do care about their own survival. If we show them that the cost of supporting terrorist is their survival, the terrorists will find a lot fewer safe harbors.
Personally, I don't like war. I don't like the thought that innocent people will die, whatever their nationality or beliefs. But innocent people have already died. One thing I do know is that if you have to fight, you had better fight to win. And we have to fight.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 19:52:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
wherever any terrorists have ever been given support and succor, we will not prevent future attacks.
Even more interesting. So you propose to retaliate against France, Canada and some other allies as well?
Nope.
quote:
man, you really are pissed.
Nope.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:00:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
I fear that there is absolutely no short term solution, and that other like minds will feel emboldened, take action, and that more devastation will occur.
And I feel so damned helpless...
Yes, there is something we can do.
They want us to be afraid and confused.
If, and I don't want to speculate, but IF, it was the fanatical Muslims we know they all want the world to look and act alike. No drugs, sex, and who knows what else, just pray all day. I say, we all get naked and drunk and go in the streets and have sex. That'll show 'em.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:13:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thank you all for your concern. I've just recieved an E mail from my daughter. A few stiches and a ruined suit but she's basicly okay.
What a relief. Glad she is ok.
On another list I'm on, someone knows one of the pilots who was in one of the planes, the one that went down in Philadelphia I think. So sad.
Seeing that one plane drive right into the building was chilling.
I was never affected this way by Oklahoma or other attacks. I've also been against the death penalty but the person who posted on here who said kill them, that was my 1st reaction too.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:17:30 [Permalink]
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My response was, I don't think anybody would confuse NYC with the City of God...
-- Donnie B.
LOL, good one, Donnie.
What is wrong with these people? Ok, so they want to believe what they want but god DAMN it, leave the rest of us alone.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:26:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
You know, I have heard World War Three and Nostrodamus this/Nostrodamus that all day as if people were eager for it. Is everyone that bored??
OH! That explains it. I didn't understand at the time what they meant but someone called up Larry Elder, here on KABC radio and started talking about that. He cut them off, saying there are real problems and he didn't have time for that nonsense.
quote:
Everyone seems so sure that the bin Laden did this. Couldn't a Columbian drug cartel pull it off, too? And wouldn't they have a motive? And for the conspiracy theorists: Maybe the military industrial complex contrived it all to increase funding. Not that I personally believe that. I just want to beat their sorry asses to it.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Funny you should mention conspiracies. My 1st thoughts right after it happened were that Bush did it. Perhaps in a moment when his staff wasn't keeping an eye on him.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:33:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
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... Bah, what do I care. $10 of gas lasts me all month.
Bah back to you, @tomic :-)
A tank of gas lasts me 4 days tops.
As to why prices are going up (and you can bet they will), probably the same reason the markets are in trouble: uncertainty regarding the future.
But you didn't need me to tell you that.
Na, the reason prices go up or the stock market drops, etc., etc., is because people are sheep and or greedy.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:45:05 [Permalink]
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War? Why war? Why are Americans so fond of the notion of war. It is not a good thing. This is now and will always truly be a police matter. It was a criminal act by individuals.
To add a chill to the hunt for who is responsible, there is an ugly scenario developing. Given the apparent nationalities of the the killers, Egyptian and Saudi they could well be what are known in the Middle East as Afghanis. That is fundamentalist Musilums that went to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. These people received weapons and support from the US.
Rather than concider the long term, the American government took a short term cold war view and may now be reaping the sorrow of promoting religious fundamentalism as a weapon.
This is not to suggest that the action of these killers is in any way justifed nor that the American should not pursue them. However, a belicose response will not likely turn down the level of hostility in the world today. Which if it could be turned down would do far more to keep Americans safe from terrorism. It does suggest that the US needs to seriously look at the use of force as a tool and take 'some' responsiblity for the level of violence and hate around the world today. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:51:43 [Permalink]
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I say, if we wipe out the wrong terrorist group, bomb the wrong harboring country, we say ahh, gee wiz, and go on to the next. I would propose that we start alphabetically. By the time we get to Z we will have surely gotten the right ones. Allah can sort it all out as to who gets the 70 wives in paradise and who doesn't.
What, are we afraid that they won't think well of us? They already call us the great Satan. They already have murdered thousands of our people.
All right, if we're Satan then let's unleash Hell.
I'm with you Slater. In fact that's what I said a little after it happened, not quite in those words but YES that's what should be done. I'm through being tolerant.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 21:58:51 [Permalink]
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Yes these cretins will have fewer and fewer places to hide. Ed's watching the news right now and just ran in here with something new. Normally "terrorist" states are throwing their support behind us. Lebanon and Syria both want to help eradicate terrorism.
Dare we hope? Could the worst terrorist tragedy ever visited this nation actually shake the world into some sense? Wouldn't it be great if differences were resolved with clear thinking and dialog instead of bloodshed?
Okay, there's still one tiny bit of bloodshed yet to be resolved. Since I'm sure CNN will cover it, I think I'll tape it. When I'm feeling moody or have PMS, I can replay the tape instead of yelling at Ed or kicking the dog.
Right, still not totally rational, but I'm getting there.
Lisa
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 22:29:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
War? Why war? Why are Americans so fond of the notion of war. It is not a good thing. This is now and will always truly be a police matter. It was a criminal act by individuals.
We are definetly NOT fond of war. And NO it's not a good thing.
The enormity and sheer size of this act is what makes it an act of war in our minds. It is most probable that the death toll from yesterday will reach the tens of thousands. Proably more then the entire population of my home town. That goes beyond 'criminal act' in my opinion. You don't think that these suicidal terrorists thought they were at war with the United States? We NEED to treat this as an act of war. Calmly, delibertly, without jumping to conclusions, and making sure we get the right people, but war none the less.
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 22:37:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Opus:
Terrorism is stopped by the proper exercise of the rule of law. Not by retaliatory air strikes which can only create more innocent victims. Sometimes this process is long and frustrating, but in the end it will work.
You only need look at Israel to see how retaliation does not work. This is even more true against a foe with nothing to lose. Eventually, the Israelis will run out of options for escalation. What then?
Opus, when you say the rules from a bunch of bloodsucking lawyers is more important than making a proper military response to an attack on our constitutional laws, national security, and capitalism, then you will only perpetuate the problems this nation has been suffering for too long (after yesterday far too long). I'm sure that a number of politicians in this country are salivating at the thought of limiting the freedoms we enjoy over this incident. We don't need higher security at airports (although that might not be a bad idea anyways). What we need is clear and devastating actions to eliminate the perpetrators of this carnage. I personally would die before letting the federal government take away my constitutional freedom.
As for Israel's retaliations to the deaths and terrorism going on in their country, how can you say retaliation does not work? Maybe your dreaming of a socialist utopia where everyone loves everybody else, but in the real world it takes real actions to stop real hatred. Unfortunately the violence escalated because Israel was forced to hold off any real actions by a bunch of weenies telling them to try peace. Strong actions and retaliations don't always make everybody friends, certainly not among the Palestinians, but they can at least make themselves more secure.
quote:
Dog_Ed:
Slater, Slater, that's horrible. I agree, it is physically, morally, and psychologically an act of war. Right now many of us are thinking from rage and horror. But I maintain that even in war we must keep our humanity. The Geneva conventions on war were formulated in an attempt to contain the savagery of war, like pus in a cyst, as much as possible.
Terrorists do not pay the Geneva Conventions any mind, the jackals. But we must. We must consider our means of warfare not because we are legally bound to do so but because we are morally bound to do so. We are the humans, and if we kill carelessly then we become more like the jackals.
Correction, right now MOST of us are thinking from rage and horror, and so we should. It is only human to respond to violence with real and substantial self-defense. The American people are crying out for vengeance and even the liberal news media can't stop talking about it.
Certain people, who follow the mysterious notion that they can form a war free world, have let anti-US terrorist organizations get so far out of control that the situation has gone far beyond a cyst but to now being a terribly festered wound. We should have opened up that wound and treated it a long time ago.
My imagery here sucks so I'll just finish by saying that the savagery of war cannot be contained by Geneva conventions. Each side in a war will decide for themselves how far they will go and the opposing side must use the best means possible to combat these tactics. Most of the time that means breaking rules against “the savagery of war”. Certainly the US must decide the most humane ways to combat inhumane tactics, but that takes a second seat to winning a war.
As a side note, one of my favorite pastimes is to study military |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 23:26:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Certain people, who follow the mysterious notion that they can form a war free world, have let anti-US terrorist organizations get so far out of control that the situation has gone far beyond a cyst but to now being a terribly festered wound. We should have opened up that wound and treated it a long time ago.
This is just bullshit and I don't think there's anything else to say about it.
quote:
My imagery here sucks so I'll just finish by saying that the savagery of war cannot be contained by Geneva conventions. Each side in a war will decide for themselves how far they will go and the opposing side must use the best means possible to combat these tactics. Most of the time that means breaking rules against “the savagery of war”. Certainly the US must decide the most humane ways to combat inhumane tactics, but that takes a second seat to winning a war.
Then why did we sign such agreements in the first place and why have we always tsk tsked Japan and Germany for what they did during World War II? The US has always made such a big deal about having the moral high ground but when push comes to shove thatall means nothing, eh?
Probably the worst thing in all this is the racist attitudes I have heard about killing them Arabs. Like "let's rid ourselves of those vermin" regardless of whether or not they did anything. It's one thing to want revenge but what I have been seeing is an angry mob, without morals or ethics. Not what I would like to think of as Americans. Sorry, but if all that's gone what's left?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 23:45:47 [Permalink]
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I HOPE that all this irrational 'bomb everybody' and 'kill all arabs' is just anger and when people calm down they will see how silly (and not so far different from the attitudes of the terrorists) all this is.
Yes, we need to do something. But we need to, most importantly of all, retain our morality and behave as a civilized country.
This attitude towards arabs has always bothered me, even before this. We, western civilization, owes a huge debt towards the arabs.
After the fall of Rome, while we were running around in wolf skins hacking each other to bits, they were the civilized ones and preserved, and added to, the knowledge that eventually allowed the reinassance and the end of the dark ages.
Not all arabs are fundamentalists bent on a jihad. Most of them are as horrified by this as we are.
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 23:47:18 [Permalink]
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Probably the worst thing in all this is the racist attitudes I have heard about killing them Arabs. Like "let's rid ourselves of those vermin" regardless of whether or not they did anything.
Where are you hearing this? I've been watching major news for the past two days. Are you sure you're not just hearing what you want to hear, and are misinterpreting peoples' attitudes?
[I've heard reports of college student frat boys acting like, well, college student frat boys (i.e. ignorant and stupid), but surely you're not projecting this onto our society?]
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane...
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 09/12/2001 23:48:41 |
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