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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
 Posted - 09/11/2001 : 22:57:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
I hope the wiser heads in the Bush white house will prevail. Colin Powell is a good man, and Cheney has an oilman's sense of realpolitik, so perhaps we can avoid lashing out and killing a bunch of women and kids in some refugee camps or poor Afghani villages. To perpetuate senseless killing would be a terrible insult to the memory of those who died today.
I totally agree with that, but lets not forget who the good guys are here. If we declare a war on terrorism, and finally start to take some real actions against people who would do this sort of thing, then when collateral damage results from this action, I believe we are justified.
I hear that WW2 brought the notion of uncivilized warfare back into human thought, but war has always ravaged those it surrounds, it was the same when ancient armies pillaged and burned the countrysides as when Japanese and British civilians were bombed out of their cities. The question is which side is justified and what their ultimate target is, and I think a bunch of cowards are on the wrong end.
These countries that support and hide these thugs and joyfully celebrate the deaths of thousands of international civilians, quite frankly, deserve what they get. For too long they have gotten away with the line that they do not condone terrorist acts, yet they know it is the only kind of warfare they can afford to engage in with the United States so they fund it and protect it. Whatever semantics you want to inject, warfare is warfare, and countries that deal it out, in whatever form, deserve a warlike response from the attacked parties. In the case of the United States that means superpower unleashed.
If we simply try to make our airways safer then they'll switch to an even more devastating and/or unthinkable acts. Each time something like this happens we cannot simply say, "oh we'll stop them if they try to do this," or, "oh we'll stop them if they try to get here," or, “if only we could get some authorities in there.” If terrorists actively plot against free nations we have to stop them, period. Untying the hands of US intelligence and reclaiming the authority a sovereign nation should possess will help solve anti-US terrorism immensely in my current opinion.
I only pray that the US comes out of this for the better. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 23:18:00 [Permalink]
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Happy to read your relative's OK, Slater, and thanks to Dog_Ed, Greg, and others for appreciated comments amist this insanity.
Terrible and tragic as the events of today were, I was disturbed by the precipitation of racist and anti-Muslim ramblings and in both words and actions. I understand the anger and frustration grief can induce, but misdirected hatred and wrath only breeds more injustice, pain, and hate. I hope that people can find it within themselves to retain their sense of rationality, and not allow personal rage, and communal reinforcement of hatred (scapegoating) to pervert their opinions through unfair generalizations of our fellow citizens of Middle Eastern descent. I lived in the Boston area- where several of the flights originated- and I knew many such people who were fine individuals (as if I have to say that.) I heard a Jewish talk show host, who I consider to be both intelligent and ethical, make such a sweeping generalization this morning. Although I'm empathetic regarding his perspective and deep personal losses and pain, I found it saddening.
Ron White |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 23:43:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
I heard a Jewish talk show host, who I consider to be both intelligent and ethical, make such a sweeping generalization this morning. Although I'm empathetic regarding his perspective and deep personal losses and pain, I found it saddening.
I am of Jewish descent and I hope that this is not the prevaling sentiment among Jewish people. If anyone can understand the harm that sweeping generalizations can do, it should be we Jews.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 23:59:12 [Permalink]
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I have heard quite a lot of anti-arab rhetoric today. Of course, it's always out there but today everyone decided that now it was ok to get it out in the open.
The only way to keep things like this from happening is to somehow get people to stop hating each other. There's your defensive shield right there. I'd rather work towards that than go through the erosion of freedoms that I have already heard the commentators generally agree are inevitable because of this. We'll bomb the hell out of somebody but we're going to live in an even more paranoid society. We're even worse victims than we thought. Not only will a bunch of people have died and billions of dollars will have been lost but in a way the terrorsts will end up taking freedom from us too. I guess they got us good.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 00:10:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
This might seem odd to say, but when I saw that plane hit the World Trade Center on tv I had to wonder who was flying it. Surely no airline pilot would do that. Is it possible that the terrorists trained people to fly large planes like that?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 00:14:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Aristotle said that Man is inherently eveil, and the evil has to be controlled... unfortunately, I see a lot of evidence that he's not entirely wrong, assuming he's not right. We have to somehow control the evil within ourselves, and while deterring the evil in others when called for. Not an easy task.
Ron White |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 00:27:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes, they mentioned today that they've been doing exactly that. Whereas it takes some skill to hit a target in such a way, planes all fly basically the same way, whether they're huge and they suck, burn, and blow, or tiny and spin a propeller. They could conceivably take someone who knows the basics, and train them on the specifics. Whereas these maniac's motivations seem pretty clear, what I've never been able to comprehend was what went through the mind of that Egypt Air pilot a while back.
Ron White |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 00:43:01 [Permalink]
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Did I do something wrong. What I wrote was not posted.
Terrorism is stopped by the proper exercise of the rule of law. Not by retaliatory air strikes which can only create more innocent victims. Sometimes this process is long and frustrating, but in the end it will work.
You only need look at Israel to see how retaliation does not work. This is even more true against a foe with nothing to lose. Eventually, the Israelis will run out of options for escalation. What then?
Plus so many people seem to assume that there will be someone to retaliate against. It is entirely possible that all the people involved in the attack died in the attack.
To my mind the whole attack was tailor made to be self contained and to not raise any suspicion from police or anyone else. Cell phone messages from one of the planes only mentions knives. Perhaps, help was needed to get them on the plane, but I doubt it.
I only hope the calmness prevails and the police are allowed to do their work. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 01:24:54 [Permalink]
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I fear that the most likely outcome will be that our government simply uses these attacks as a pretext to lash out at whomever they consider the enemy du jour, rather than base their response on demonstrable facts.
It's happened before. In the '80s there was a terrorist bombing at a disco in Germany frequented by U.S. military personnel, which killed several Americans. The Reagan Administration asigned blame to Libya and engaged in retaliatory air raids agains Benghazi.
The Germans, in their annoying, methodical Teutonic way, kept investigating and eventually developed evidence that the bombing had actually been carried out by a group based in and backed by Syria.
I suspect that a major component in the tendency of governments to go off half-cocked in that way is the infestation of Western governments by lawyers, who are trained in a type of thinking which is antithetical to what a thorough investigation requires.
To this mindset, the process is first, determine the position you will advocate, and then sieze on every piece of evidence available to support your view while ignoring and/or seeking to discredit or conceal any inconvenient fact which might falsify your position. In an adversary system, this is the heart of effective advocacy.
On the other hand, the thought process which an investigator uses to solve a crime is basically identical to a doctor diagnosing a disease, or a troubleshooter tracking down a problem in an electronic system. It's closely related to the scientific method. First, observe all you can. Then form hypotheses which account for your observations. Then, test each hypothesis, maintaining a sturdy willingness to abandon any which fail to hold up under test. Repeat until you have a conclusion which you have been unable to prove wrong.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however absurd, is the truth"
-Sherlock Holmes
We're already seeing the first process begin. The talking heads of the media have already largely decided who the guilty party is- a remarkable display of irresponsibility. It's probable that the pols won't be far behind their lead.
Bush is now facing a path laden with traps for an uncritical thinker. If he manages to avoid acting out of prejudice, or being seduced into lashing out at people or viewpoints which are inconvenient for him and his backers then even I will have to concede that he will have achieved some genuine stature. I'm not ready to bet on it, though.
Finally, to everyone who thinks that indiscriminate slaughter is an appropriate response- it's a pity that you and your humanity were on such uneasy terms that you're so easily divorced.
Boris Karloff died for your sins. |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 01:43:26 [Permalink]
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I've heard people say that it could have been done by right-wing fanatics in the US.
There are other theories that it could have been done by anti-capatlists who wanted to do something bad for the economy.
Radioactive GM Crops.
Slightly above background.
Safe to eat.
But no activist would dare rip it out.
As they think it gives them cancer. |
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 04:10:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Er, surely you don't mean price gouging is comparible to killing 10,000 innocents?
Legally no. Morally, while thousands are suffering and dying, while millions are mourning, while millions more are confused and panicking, to use this situation for windfall profit taking is sickening. Would they feel the need to grab an extra few bucks if it were their families suffering?
I heard last night that Pat Robertson went on the '700 Club' and blamed Islam. Maybe he thinks what we need is a jihad?
quote:
So the right-wing testosterone-powered idiots are already up, riding the wave and hoping to gain listeners and line their pockets. This is a big opportunity for Michael Reagan, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and all the other demogogues. Bathdardth! But, I rant.
Maybe they could join in a military call-up and show that they really are not the draft dodgers that they were during Vietnam.
Greg.
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 10:16:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Uncertainty? I suppose but as far as I know gas supplies were in no way effected by what happened today. Anyone that tries to make a buck off this in any way should be cut into little pieces and fed to pigs.
Suppose you are a gas station owner with a limited supply of gasoline onhand, a fixed timeline until the next refill, and a mad consumer rush to stockpile your product.
You've basically three choices:
1) Fix prices at current level and thereby run your station dry in a matter of hours.
2) Jack prices way up to deter consumer stockpiling.
3) Somewhere in between.
I completely fail to see why option (2) or (3) are immoral. The only gas stations around my area which did not run completely dry were those that were engaged in price gouging. Since I was running on fumes, by the end of the workday the only way I made my 30-minute commute home is that I found a price-gouging station and paid through the wazoo for a few gallons. I thank all the gods in the pantheon for the buisness owner that had the audacity to fight against the consumer rush to stockpile at the expense of others.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 10:23:31 [Permalink]
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You left out option 4.
4) Limit the amount of gas each customer can buy at one time so that supplies are not depleted by people in a panic.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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