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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2001 : 23:48:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not all arabs are fundamentalists bent on a jihad. Most of them are as horrified by this as we are.
This is an excellent point and one I hope people think about.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 23:51:13 [Permalink]
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Not living here in front of my computer I hear it from people at work, on the street, online, on TV, the radio....and not just once. I have heard this a lot. Yes we should "Make those terrorists pay!" but not people that just happen to be Arabs.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 00:04:38 [Permalink]
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My husband has just returned from a year stationed at the embassy in Muscat, Oman. One of the first calls he made upon hearing the news of this horror was to a friend still stationed there.
The Omanis, keep in mind they are Muslim, are shocked, saddened, and horrified by this. The Sultan was one of the first to cable the president with sentiments of condolence and support.
How many of us have Germanic surnames? Are you Nazis? Japanese, feel like taking out an aircraft carrier? Of course not. 99% should not be painted with the same brush as the 1%. Oh, but when we catch up with that 1%....no mercy.
Lisa
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 00:42:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
How many of us have Germanic surnames? Are you Nazis? Japanese, feel like taking out an aircraft carrier? Of course not. 99% should not be painted with the same brush as the 1%. Oh, but when we catch up with that 1%....no mercy.
Lisa
Most of family were Jews, and I'm cheap. What can you say about that? Huh?
Muslims do have a weird religion, if they are fanitic or not. As well as Jews and xians. Well they are all the same anyway really.
Maybe it would be a good idea to blow up the whole middle east and start over. Thousands of years of fighting, you'd think they'd 'get over it' already. It's all sand anyway, who needs it.
We don't need the oil that's there, either. So what's to stop anyone from bombing it?
That would shut them up. Then the Irish might see that they shouldn't fight either.
Any other problems you want me to slove?
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 06:20:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not living here in front of my computer I hear it from people at work, on the street, online, on TV, the radio....and not just once. I have heard this a lot. Yes we should "Make those terrorists pay!" but not people that just happen to be Arabs.
Should this unprovoked attack lead to a real war upon terrorists and the nations that support them, very many of “innocent” Arabs are going to die in the process, just as thousands of Japanese and Germans died when we fire-bombed Tokyo and Dresden.
Those “innocent” Arabs who did not overtly support the murder of our people tacitly supported these attacks by remaining productive citizens of their nations, thereby supporting the terrorist war effort. It is simply too late to plead innocence at this juncture, since their governments have effectively declared war upon us. The time for mercy and diplomacy is past.
In other words, tough shjt.
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/13/2001 06:25:38 |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 06:36:06 [Permalink]
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Those “innocent” Arabs who did not overtly support the murder of our people tacitly supported these attacks by remaining productive citizens of their nations, thereby supporting the terrorist war effort. It is simply too late to plead innocence at this juncture, since their governments have effectively declared war upon us. The time for mercy and diplomacy is past.
So these people are guilty of the crimes of others who they have no control over simply because they are alive and were unfortunate enough to be born where they were?
Greg.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 07:18:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Those “innocent” Arabs who did not overtly support the murder of our people tacitly supported these attacks by remaining productive citizens of their nations, thereby supporting the terrorist war effort. It is simply too late to plead innocence at this juncture, since their governments have effectively declared war upon us. The time for mercy and diplomacy is past.
So these people are guilty of the crimes of others who they have no control over simply because they are alive and were unfortunate enough to be born where they were?
Clearly not. Did you actually read what I wrote? They are not completely innocent because they chose to remain and thereby support the society, nation, government, and war effort. It is the society as a whole that must be destroyed. In the field of ethics it is called the anthropomorphization of society to the status of a single collective moral agent.
Consider those anti-war anti-Nazi citizens of Dresden who made, say, shoes. Were they as morally contemptible as the SS officers? Of course not. Did they play a role in keeping German society running smoothly and thereby assist in the war effort? Of course. Did they, as individuals, deserve do die? Probably not. Was it therefore immoral to kill them? No. Killing them was part of the price to pay for the greater good, the destruction of the Nazi regime and the unconditional surrender of the German nation.
BTW FYI, I am of German descent, and I carry a very recognizably German surname. I might be identified as a German American. I say this to note that this is at not at all about racial or ethnic hatred, it is about the conduct of a rightful and necesary war.
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/13/2001 07:20:52 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 08:33:56 [Permalink]
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Consider those anti-war anti-Nazi citizens of Dresden who made, say, shoes. Were they as morally contemptible as the SS officers? Of course not. Did they play a role in keeping German society running smoothly and thereby assist in the war effort? Of course. Did they, as individuals, deserve do die? Probably not. Was it therefore immoral to kill them? No. Killing them was part of the price to pay for the greater good, the destruction of the Nazi regime and the unconditional surrender of the German nation.
I think you not only given a rationalization for us to bomb others but have also given the rationalization for what the terrorists did. So you are saying that what they did was OK because they believe the US is evil?
Think about it.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 08:42:20 [Permalink]
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Consider those anti-war anti-Nazi citizens of Dresden who made, say, shoes. Were they as morally contemptible as the SS officers? Of course not. Did they play a role in keeping German society running smoothly and thereby assist in the war effort? Of course. Did they, as individuals, deserve do die? Probably not. Was it therefore immoral to kill them? No. Killing them was part of the price to pay for the greater good, the destruction of the Nazi regime and the unconditional surrender of the German nation.
BTW FYI, I am of German descent, and I carry a very recognizably German surname. I might be identified as a German American. I say this to note that this is at not at all about racial or ethnic hatred, it is about the conduct of a rightful and necesary war.
I think you better cool down.
Attacks on civilians aren't only immoral, they are illegal. It doesn't matter if the victims are Arabs, Germans, from Afganistan or Americans working in the WTC "playing their role in keeping the american society running smoothly".
"A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45"
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 09:36:31 [Permalink]
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What the F*** are you people talking about?
In Texas a mosque had a rock thrown through one window, in Viginia a mosque had an angry message left on their voice mail. In Washington DC an Arab bike messanger stopped in front of a crowd watching the WTC collaspe and he started yelling about how wonderful it was that Americans are being made to suffer. He was beat up, but the cops rescued him and sent him on his way.
Big deal. In a country this size that is NOTHING.
There has never been a people who behaved so well, so correctly and with such a high degree of civilization as Americans are doing at this moment.
Since the day that I arrived in this country I have never ceased to wonder why Americans will put down Americans and find fault with Americans at the drop of a hat.
STOP IT, DAMNIT!
You people are the best people on the face of the Earth, and I am proud that you have let me become one of you.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 09:45:17 [Permalink]
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In Washington DC an Arab bike messanger stopped in front of a crowd watching the WTC collaspe and he started yelling about how wonderful it was that Americans are being made to suffer. He was beat up, but the cops rescued him and sent him on his way.
Pretty stupid of him, as well as inconsiderate. He's lucky he lives in a country which allows even the most extreme forms of dissent. If any of us were in Afghanistan we could be executed simply for admitting to being atheists.
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 09:48:20 [Permalink]
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In Washington DC an Arab bike messanger stopped in front of a crowd watching the WTC collaspe and he started yelling about how wonderful it was that Americans are being made to suffer. He was beat up, but the cops rescued him and sent him on his way.
This messenger was on his way to a well deserved Darwin Award.
I hope that all the "let's take everything we've got and kill everyone" mentality fades over the next few days and people come to their senses. I know I will feel better then. Perhaps you are not talking to or listening to the people I am. I see quite a lot of anger, and perhaps rightly so, but it makes me nervous how mindless it is. I hear people trying to rationalize horrible acts. Ionically, what I gather is that what was wrong for the terrorists to do is OK for Americans. I hope people take a deep breath, look in the mirror a moment and think about things.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 09:52:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Those “innocent” Arabs who did not overtly support the murder of our people tacitly supported these attacks by remaining productive citizens of their nations, thereby supporting the terrorist war effort. It is simply too late to plead innocence at this juncture, since their governments have effectively declared war upon us. The time for mercy and diplomacy is past.
So these people are guilty of the crimes of others who they have no control over simply because they are alive and were unfortunate enough to be born where they were?
Clearly not. Did you actually read what I wrote? They are not completely innocent because they chose to remain and thereby support the society, nation, government, and war effort. It is the society as a whole that must be destroyed. In the field of ethics it is called the anthropomorphization of society to the status of a single collective moral agent.
Consider those anti-war anti-Nazi citizens of Dresden who made, say, shoes. Were they as morally contemptible as the SS officers? Of course not. Did they play a role in keeping German society running smoothly and thereby assist in the war effort? Of course. Did they, as individuals, deserve do die? Probably not. Was it therefore immoral to kill them? No. Killing them was part of the price to pay for the greater good, the destruction of the Nazi regime and the unconditional surrender of the German nation.
BTW FYI, I am of German descent, and I carry a very recognizably German surname. I might be identified as a German American. I say this to note that this is at not at all about racial or ethnic hatred, it is about the conduct of a rightful and necesary war.
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/13/2001 07:20:52
Your first mistake is to assume that the people in these contries have the option of moving/not working. If you don't work, you don't eat. Many countries in troubled areas of the world require travel papers. Permission from the government to go from place to place. Refugees are mostly rejected by governments. During the Rwanda civil war, Republic of Congo and the other contries whose borders were innundated by refugees from this violent and bloody conflict were so badly strapped for resources that they started turning refugees away. Assigning guilt to civilians who have no choice in the matter is disingenious. When people are faced with the choice between ideals and survival, most people choose survival. I cannot say that I would act differently.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 10:04:05 [Permalink]
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Oh I hear the anger all right.
I heard the anger in my 6'2", 180lb Irish cop of a son, and the tears in his voice, when he told me of listening on his police radio to a fellow officer being slowly crushed to death under a shifting pile of rubble.
We deserve to be angry.
We have a right to be angry. So stop deriding people for being angry.
They may be saying politically incorrect things in their anger but they are behaving wonderfully
Sticks and stones (and airliners) may break my bones but names..etc.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 10:19:38 [Permalink]
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I agree that people have a right to be angry. I do not see that I was deriding anyone for being angry. Too much anger can never, ever be a good thing. It can only lead to irrational acts. I see nothing wrong with wanting to see the anger brought down a notch or two. Sure, be angry. Who isn't? I'm angry too but I see the sort of fear and anger around me that leads to people burning witches and frankly it scares me.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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