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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2001 : 11:19:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree that people have a right to be angry. Too much anger can never, ever be a good thing.
In this case there can be no such thing as TOO much anger.
I just recieved an E mail from mid-town Manhattan that says the hospitals are no longer asking for blood. There aren't enough survivors to use it.
quote:
It can only lead to irrational acts. ...Who isn't? I'm angry too but I see the sort of fear and anger around me that leads to people burning witches and frankly it scares me.
The only "witch burning" is accusing Americans of Anti-Arab actions.No one is doing any such thing. Americans have never behaved in a finer fashion.
I seldom speak of the war that I fought in. In the back of my sock draw is a box with my Purple Heart in it. I only mention it now as some bizarre "claim of authority."
There is a very dirty job that is going to have to be done. A lot more people are going to have to die. We are at war again, and we Americans are all going to need very ounce of anger that we can muster and forge it into a resolve to get what needs to be done accomplished.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 11:21:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
War? Why war? Why are Americans so fond of the notion of war. It is not a good thing. This is now and will always truly be a police matter. It was a criminal act by individuals.
To add a chill to the hunt for who is responsible, there is an ugly scenario developing. Given the apparent nationalities of the the killers, Egyptian and Saudi they could well be what are known in the Middle East as Afghanis. That is fundamentalist Musilums that went to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. These people received weapons and support from the US.
Rather than concider the long term, the American government took a short term cold war view and may now be reaping the sorrow of promoting religious fundamentalism as a weapon.
This is not to suggest that the action of these killers is in any way justifed nor that the American should not pursue them. However, a belicose response will not likely turn down the level of hostility in the world today. Which if it could be turned down would do far more to keep Americans safe from terrorism. It does suggest that the US needs to seriously look at the use of force as a tool and take 'some' responsiblity for the level of violence and hate around the world today.
Be that as it may Opus, that does not justify the slaughter of tens of thousands of individuals in a building that is an INTERNATIONAL building. Child Care centers are located in those buildings, visitors to NYC go to those buildings - not all those in the WTC were Americans nor were they diplomats.
To suggest that anything justifies the wholesale slaughter of that many individuals (more than have died in some conflicts in times of war) is absolutely and utterly to fail to comprehend the scale of the destruction.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 11:27:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
The only "witch burning" is accusing Americans of Anti-Arab actions.No one is doing any such thing.
Look, I have only accused people of talk. Talk that I have heard with my own ears. The anger I fear is this initial, irrational anger that I know will pass. Obviously people will still be angry and rightfully so.
I am also aware that innocents will die abroad because of this and that that can't be helped. It's not a good thing but when such people stand behind the innocent expecting them to be shields they will soon find out how bad an idea that was. While I am generally a pacifist I am fully aware that some blameless people will die. We should mourn for them too.
On another note: I heard that Pakistan is cooperating with the US. I am completely amazed. I thought their show of support was just talk but I'm glad to see I was wrong about that. If every country cooperated against terrorists like this all the time it would not be such a problem. Don't be fooled. After a time it will be business as usual.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 11:40:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is a very dirty job that is going to have to be done. A lot more people are going to have to die. We are at war again, and we Americans are all going to need very ounce of anger that we can muster and forge it into a resolve to get what needs to be done accomplished.
As much as I agree with this sentiment, it frightens me that we will have to go to war.
I will agree with Slater, despite the hate that is being spewed regarding the Arabs (in general - and I have heard it) Americans have acted with an extreme amount of decorum and control. I will continue to hope that America will not begin violence in its own streets and that whatever is done in future to those who bombed the WTC that it is swift.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 13:08:53 [Permalink]
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I had sworn to myself (sworn!) I would not post again this soon. *sigh* But it appears that the US government is taking an intelligent and measured approach: leaders of the military are not willing to strike without a clear target, and are seeking the aid of countries worldwide. That's good, because any action taken will be legitimized by world opinion and if the USA has the goodwill of countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia then the chances of responding accurately when the time comes to strike are greatly enhanced.
As a good skeptical sort of bloke I seem to seldom find myself aligned behind the government. Is that because during times of peace the demogogues tend to be in the forefront, making their idiotic noises, whilst in a crisis the real leaders come to the front? I dunno.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes"
Edited by - Dog_Ed on 09/13/2001 13:09:27 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 13:45:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
But it appears that the US government is taking an intelligent and measured approach: leaders of the military are not willing to strike without a clear target, and are seeking the aid of countries worldwide. That's good, because any action taken will be legitimized by world opinion and if the USA has the goodwill of countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia then the chances of responding accurately when the time comes to strike are greatly enhanced.
You know, even if I seem like a total wishy washy flower child, this is all I hope for. I will accept that more innocents will die. I know that it will mean more attacks in the future. I just don't want to see us lash out blindly.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 14:09:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Consider those anti-war anti-Nazi citizens of Dresden who made, say, shoes. Were they as morally contemptible as the SS officers? Of course not. Did they play a role in keeping German society running smoothly and thereby assist in the war effort? Of course. Did they, as individuals, deserve do die? Probably not. Was it therefore immoral to kill them? No. Killing them was part of the price to pay for the greater good, the destruction of the Nazi regime and the unconditional surrender of the German nation.
I think you not only given a rationalization for us to bomb others but have also given the rationalization for what the terrorists did. So you are saying that what they did was OK because they believe the US is evil?
If they were right in that belief, sure. Are they?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 14:12:02 [Permalink]
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I think that depends on who you ask.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 14:13:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Consider those anti-war anti-Nazi citizens of Dresden who made, say, shoes. Were they as morally contemptible as the SS officers? Of course not. Did they play a role in keeping German society running smoothly and thereby assist in the war effort? Of course. Did they, as individuals, deserve do die? Probably not. Was it therefore immoral to kill them? No. Killing them was part of the price to pay for the greater good, the destruction of the Nazi regime and the unconditional surrender of the German nation.
BTW FYI, I am of German descent, and I carry a very recognizably German surname. I might be identified as a German American. I say this to note that this is at not at all about racial or ethnic hatred, it is about the conduct of a rightful and necesary war.
I think you better cool down.
You claim to have insight into my emotional state? Perhaps we should take this to the thread about telepathy?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 14:24:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think that depends on who you ask.
I disagree. The Nazis were evil, even though many claimed otherwise. So also with those who performed this action.
You can indulge in moral subjectivism, and say that no one is objectively 'evil' if you like, you are welcome to have your own moral framework.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 15:11:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
I disagree. The Nazis were evil, even though many claimed otherwise. So also with those who performed this action.
You can indulge in moral subjectivism, and say that no one is objectively 'evil' if you like, you are welcome to have your own moral framework.
It's really much more complicated than that. The socioeconomic philosophy of the Nazis was in no way limited to Germany. It was certainly a pan-European minority ideology. Hitler gained political office by almost dumb luck and consolidated absolute power with the help of powerful interests both inside and outside of Germany. Without this luck/help, Hitler may have ended up as the Bin Laden of his day - without a country but with many willing terrorists. When Hitlers armies marched into foreign territory, be it France, Poland, even Soviet territory, the SS found many willing hands from among the population. That without any real evidence of wrongdoing, the Nazis could convince so many all over Europe to justify the extermination of an entire ethnic group is very chilling. Much the same situation is what is occouring in the Middle East today, except that the minority philosophy is not fascism but a warped religious/social fanaticism. The closest it has come to controlling a country is the Taliban, which thankfully, does not control the whole of Afganistan and is being fought very vigorously from within it's borders.
I think that I'm going to leave this board for a while to straighten out my head a little. I am literally physically ill from this whole thing. I live about 3 hours (drive) from the City and last night couldn't sleep because I heard Air National Guard jets flying very close over my house to NY. I have a brother-in-law who is a State Trooper who was sent down yesterday (been a Trooper less than 6 months) - haven't heard anything from him. Tuesday, I couldn't watch the TV at all - I had to remain calm and rational and now I am paying that piper.
Greg.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 19:46:58 [Permalink]
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http://earthward.net/
This organization was started by the god-buster egroup. (nogod@yahoogroups.com)
They are sincere with their efforts so I thought this is a good time to post this.
nlm
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 23:56:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I think you better cool down.
You claim to have insight into my emotional state? Perhaps we should take this to the thread about telepathy?
OK! Let me get this straight.
You are flaming me for NOT believing you support terrorism and genocide?
If so, interesting to talk to you, bye!
"A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45"
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2001 : 00:09:55 [Permalink]
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Thanks for all of your well-considered and argued viewpoints. It begins to sound like Osama, the Talaban, Bin Laden, and their supporting nation's roles range from less-than-innocent to outright guilty, military retaliation is unavoidable, and will occur very soon- for better or worse. Someone responded to my drug laws/ terrorism post that the Bush Administration paid the talaban 150 million not to grow opium… it's pretty disgusting to think that some of the loot might have indirectly gone to teach lunatics how to fly in Florida (I'll never again feel guilt wondering whether my taxes are always being applied prudently.) A humanitarian approach is best when it is possible and makes sense, but unfortunately, radical, thug-like regimes sometimes must laugh at our piddle-paddling with weak-willed diplomatic posturing, sanctions, and deals with humanitarian aid, viewing us as hopelessly naïve fools.
Ron White |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2001 : 00:57:56 [Permalink]
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While the "flower children" (whoever they may be) on this board have not made any worthwhile points about why the U.S. should not take some substantial actions, nor tried to put forth alternate explanations as to why terrorism has obviously become out of control since the cold war, I will make some quick rebuttals to the slander that you gave to my exchange of ideas, @tomic. Why this has occurred since I have been holding back my own emotions regarding the bullshit some of you have been spewing against your own countrymen.
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@tomic:
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Tiptup:
Certain people, who follow the mysterious notion that they can form a war free world, have let anti-US terrorist organizations get so far out of control that the situation has gone far beyond a cyst but to now being a terribly festered wound. We should have opened up that wound and treated it a long time ago.
This is just bullshit and I don't think there's anything else to say about it.
Perhaps you are not as well informed as I am concerning the state of terrorism in the world today. Quite frankly, the United States has let a bunch of plain idiotic mush-brains tell us what we can and cannot do to protect ourselves with a bunch of unrealistic rules thought up by people with schizophrenic fantasies about how the real world works. (Jimmy Carter) People with undeniably good, but totally unrealistic intentions tore down this country's defense against terrorist organizations. The last few days of press conferences by the Bush administration and our defense personnel has been about repealing these brainless rules, in addition to the international war effort. If any of you are so blind to this fact that all you can do is call my observations and theories bullshit, then all I can do is pray that you can receive more wisdom. Otherwise if you are referring to the bad metaphors I was trying to make based off of Dog_Ed's, then I agree to some extent. All that I was doing was putting forth ideas into a discussion because I felt I needed to talk about it.
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@tomic:
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Tiptup:
My imagery here sucks so I'll just finish by saying that the savagery of war cannot be contained by Geneva conventions. Each side in a war will decide for themselves how far they will go and the opposing side must use the best means possible to combat these tactics. Most of the time that means breaking rules against “the savagery of war”. Certainly the US must decide the most humane ways to combat inhumane tactics, but that takes a second seat to winning a war.
Then why did we sign such agreements in the first place and why have we always tsk tsked Japan and Germany for what they did during World War II? The US has always made such a big deal about having the moral high ground but when push comes to shove thatall means nothing, eh?
As I stated, from a militaristic standpoint and what is needed for self-defense, I think a number of those rules are good, I was merely stating that one couldn't hold them as unbendable gospel truth. Sometimes, as horrible as this may sound, those kinds of rules must take the backs |
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