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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2001 : 00:05:33 [Permalink]
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Hey don't look at me. I'm all for a military response. I just want it to be thought out and targeted at the truly guilty. We don't need another incident like the revenge attack Reagan pulled in the 80's that went against the wrong people. What message does that send? Piss us off and we'll fabricate a reason to kill you? Yeah, God bless America.
It bothers me more than words can describe the way I hear people talking about killing Arabs. I have heard people say we should deliberately kill women and children so they can see what it's like. If that's American I'm moving. Is that behavior worth a boooyah?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 03:51:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
It bothers me more than words can describe the way I hear people talking about killing Arabs. I have heard people say we should deliberately kill women and children so they can see what it's like. If that's American I'm moving. Is that behavior worth a boooyah?
They already know what it's like to have women an children killed every fucking day. The people who said that should get their heads out of their asses and pay attention to what goes on around the world, all in the name of American financial interests.
I just heard something else that I had forgotten. sept.11 is also the anneversary of the overthrow, by a CIA instigated and backed military coup, of the Democratically elected government of Salvadore Allende in Chile. Perhaps there's more than one group involved.
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 10:13:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
It bothers me more than words can describe the way I hear people talking about killing Arabs. I have heard people say we should deliberately kill women and children so they can see what it's like. If that's American I'm moving. Is that behavior worth a boooyah?
Of course not! This is why I keep asking you questions about this. I can't tell if you're talking about people here, or people you are seeing on tv, etc.
You need to be more careful about what you are saying. It sure as hell sounds as if you are implying that I am one of those "people talking about killing Arabs", and "deliberatly kill[ing] women and children".
As much as I've tried to clarify what I'm saying, and what I believe people like tergiversant and Slater are saying, I'm getting quite insulted that you seem to be describing us that way.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 10:14:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
I just heard something else that I had forgotten. sept.11 is also the anneversary of the overthrow, by a CIA instigated and backed military coup, of the Democratically elected government of Salvadore Allende in Chile. Perhaps there's more than one group involved.
Do you ever think anything but the worst of your country?!
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 11:03:12 [Permalink]
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Well, have calmed down a bit.., and still feel pretty much the same way. Want to see these people, who relish their inhumanity, celebrate it, dance with a twisting bayonet burried in their guts. No longer have interest in the reasons they have come to be capable of killing childern, by-standers with such apparent glee. Don't want to understand it, either, merely want to aid their speedy deliverence to their god. If we do hit them, know they will hit us again most certainly. If we don't hit them, they will hit us again most certainly. They have declared war upon us! Their hands drip with our blood. These fanatics are not going to just "go away," not without some messy help from us, all of us, that strive for an enlightened tolerant civilization.
Their innocent children dance within delighted ignorance at our gapping wound, and without severe intervention, they will become tomarrow's suicide bombers as well. Children really do suffer from the sins of their parents, must we all as well? No, no, am not advocating the targeting of children. But do know that children will be killed, as they already have been, albeit not as yet by us, and not intentionally by us. Our enemy has, and will target them, thou, use their own as its weapons, and any innocents as their sheilds. It is war, that is discussed and avocated, here, rightous war.
War was once conducted as civilly as an inherently immoral action, could be. Engagements were enacted away from the cities, combatants wore distinctive uniforms reducing 'friendly fire' and easing targeting, the parties conviently lined up accross from each other, blasted the hell out of one another, and then paused at nightfall to allow for the collecting of the dead and tending to the wounded. Opposing command officers have been known to share supper with each other, before facing each other again on the next day's battle. Civilians would actually picnic on surrounding hills at times, to view the actions much like a Monday night football game. Confess a growing admiration for the scheme, unrealistic and achaic as it may be, seeing the eyes of your enemy as you tried to kill each other honorably.
Genocide? No, the days of the great "American Indian Wars" are behind us as well. Ahh, what glory, what honor, (sarcasm). And must point out there being a goodly number of arabs and followers of Islam, who, while bearing the brunt of frustrations from the more ignorant of us, will join willingly in this "good fight," would expect. These fundamental terrorist animals, give Islam a bad name, afterall. Any lurkers around? This is no less than war against an extremely dangerous enemy of civilization.
No, don't have to imagine innocent children being victims. Don't you know there were too many children in those twin towers, Tuesday, our children, as well as too many of their fathers and mothers. We have all seen it by now. Doubt it would even occur to our forces to, nor would advocate, in deliberate cold blood, target areas of maximum civilian kills. But am saying we had better steel ourselves for a gritty dirty battle, where too many innocents will indeed become victims. And don't think it can be done with just cruise missiles or bombing either. It is already true, isn't it, without our lifting a hand, too many? And suggest, that if as intended, we become paralyzed by the possibility of unintended victims by us, or intentional victims by them, more will become victims, than if we coarsely get on with this nasty job with utmost dispatch. Allowing our enemy no quarter, nor sanctuary, while the cost might well be unacceptably high, will be less in the long run, than fretting within the grip of inaction, wondering when and where, they might strike next.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 11:52:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
If we can't be loved, then we had damn well better be feared.
Trish or someone else, what is it you guys say? OOOOH-RAH? Hoo-ya? Boo-ya?
'Cause that's what I want to yell when I read this! 
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane...
Something like that TD. (Too bad there's not a sad kinda wistful smilie)
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 14:27:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do you ever think anything but the worst of your country?!
I love my country. My country and especially it's people are not to blame (since they didn't know what was going on). I just wish that when organizations do things overseas, that they wouldn't do it in our name.
Greg.
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 18:38:40 [Permalink]
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As I suspected, these discussions are getting more and more interesting and more and more heated. It is now in the early evening on Thursday, two full days after the second American day that will live in infamy and I will reflect once again on this subject:
First, I'll perform an emotional check: I'm still profoundly angry and shocked and continue to be somewhat incredulous that this has really happened. However, a new deep sadness is also present that rapidly switches states with a feeling of satisfaction and pride at how most people respond to disasters by giving their all, without being asked. My house has several pictures in it from our wonderful trip to NYC last year and my eyes constantly fall on images filled with the World Trade Center Towers dominating the skyline, including one with the Statue of Liberty in the foreground. I feel like my guts have been ripped apart, to be honest with you, and haven't been able to eat.
Second, I will now do a status check on some of the commentary from others (attention in particular: Atomic and Rift): Although I am still absolutely and completely convinced that full-scale retaliatory action is essential, I don't believe I ever advocated arbitrarily killing innocent men, women and children (including the fictional Saliyeh, Dog_Ed) or bombing Afghanistan back into the stone age (a moot point, actually, since they currently ARE in the stone age due to their long internal strife, a decade of fun with the former Soviets, drought, and their inability to distinguish nice religious belief from rampant totalitarianism. My idea of a total nightmare: waking up tomorrow as an adult woman in Kabul). What I stated before and will state again is that we must hunt down those who advocate terror, those who fund it and those in a position of power who sanction it by letting the perpetrators live in their countries and bring them to swift and immediate justice. This action may take a massive war-like effort, hence, “innocents” (many wearing their “Bin Laden, World Hero” t-shirts, I'm sure) will no doubt suffer. I have deep faith (not in the religious sense, fellow skeptics) that America and her allies and others that join the coalition will behave in a completely civilized manner whenever possible and will properly use the tools of our civilizations, including those from the military, to accomplish these actions, since every step they take will inevitably be instantly shown on CNN, MSNBC and Fox (to view over and over and over again, ad nauseum). We may not win this war, but we sure as hell better try. I refuse to live my life in fear that I or a loved one could die in a random, evil act of terrorism because some highly motivated fanatic has declared us unfit to exist and uses a planeload of us to take out yet another beloved landmark or building filled with unsuspecting people just trying to do their jobs.
Third, I believe that the complete and total morons in this country or elsewhere who harass, threaten, harm or attack their fellow citizens or neighbors who happen to be from Arabic or other Muslim countries or backgrounds are also terrorists and deserve complete scorn and humiliation. This behavior should not be tolerated.
Fourth, this event must force us complacent and ignorant Americans to become interested and involved in world affairs again. Why are these horrible things happening? What are the root causes for such unyielding fanaticism? Should we perhaps question many of the goals of our foreign policy and our march toward globalization? Can Israel and the Palestinians ever forge a lasting peace or even co-exist on the same planet or is that a pipe dream? Why can't we throw off the shackles of “isms” (fundamentalism, totalitarianism, fascism, nationalism, tribalism) and face the future with awe and joy, working together and with science to eradicate poverty and environmental destruction and superstition and hatred and forge ahead with a space-faring civilization? Or i |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 22:49:08 [Permalink]
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100% agreement rubysue 100%
::applause::
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 23:16:40 [Permalink]
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I want to apologize, Rubysue, and to anybody else on this board who thought I was referring to them in some of my posts. I realize everybody on this board are rational and intelligent. I know that none of you want to go out and randomly kill innocent people. If my calls for restraint made you think that, I'm sorry. My posts weren't really directed at anybody on this board, but I guess just a way for me to express my concern about others in this country. I live in a mostly rural area, and I'm sure you can imagine what my fellow red-necks are saying now.
Also, don't get me wrong. I am as angry and upset as anybody else. I want the scum who did this or who help do this exterminated like the vermin they are. The earth needs to be rid of these insane, twisted inhuman fiends. I know that there will be collateral damage in all likelyhood, and that more innocent people will probably die, but that is an unavoidable fact, and one that these barbarians should have took into consideration before they committed this crime.
I'm just worried that if we go to far, it will only end up breeding more scum like this. But I'm also aware that all of you feel the same way, and if you got the idea I felt otherwise, again, I am sorry.
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2001 : 04:28:47 [Permalink]
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I think that there is a segment of society that wants to kill Arabs or Muslims indiscriminantly. I don't actually think that there is anyone on this board suggesting that but I guess I have been in knee-jerk mode due to constantly arguing with others elsewhere. Rubysue, I agree with your post.
Greg.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2001 : 09:05:29 [Permalink]
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I feel the same way. I was not commenting on what you said rubysue but on the sentiments I have picked up around me but not necessarily on this board.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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