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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2001 : 12:52:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
At the risk of offending some people here (not my intent), this attitude of "starry-eyed Pollyannaism" as you call it (), or bleeding heart liberalism, is dangerous in these situations. When this kind of attitude works it's way up into our government and (gods forbid) our military, the people who are letting their misguided sense of "humanity" rule their choices end up contributing to the deaths of the people that died yesterday.
Killing innocents is horrible, but people who realize that sometimes it is necessary are no less "human" than any other "bleeding heart liberal".
I think there is more to some of our positions than "bleeding heart liberalism." I think that some thought should be put into what's done. The knee-jerk "kill 'em all and let god sort them out" attitude could easily backfire. To some of us it's more than liberalism, it's being smart....and just, too.
Here's an interesting read. You may not agree but it is something to think about.
The Problem with Retaliation
Yes, lashing out feels good, but is it right or effective?????
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 13:09:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think that some thought should be put into what's done.
I agree, and this attitude is different than the one I was criticising.
I'm referring to the attitude that any violence or military action on our part somehow "brings us down to the level of the terrorists" (an idea that words cannot express the amount of contempt I feel for).
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 13:19:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Here's an interesting read. You may not agree but it is something to think about.
The Problem with Retaliation
You're right, I disagree. It's nonsense. The idea that we shouldn't do anything because "Any military action—including the one I've described—will have a big downside: fomenting Islamic radicalism, a radicalism that, at the grass-roots level, is simply not susceptible to normal deterrence" is silly.
They just killed thousands of innocent people. Now we are asked not to do anything, because "they might get mad at us". This is the attitude I was criticising above, and this attitude will get more innocents killed.
We can't afford not to do anything. If we don't retaliate, do you really think the Islamic radicals will be less likely to do this again, than if we do?
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 13:43:06 [Permalink]
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I didn't get "nothing should be done" from that article. I must have missed it. But I do know that throwing gasoline on a fire wil not put it out.
Much of that article, to me, was about thinking things through. The author was just throwing out some ideas and comments but never said "do nothing." Doing the wrong thing, however, could make things even worse than they are now. In an age of possible nuclear and biological terrorism it is not farfetched to see things get far, far worse.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 16:58:38 [Permalink]
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Thank you, everyone, for your comments. As I expected after posting this babbling stream-of-consciousness stuff, there would be valid opinions on all sides of this issue.
Now, in the afternoon light of the second day, and with my hangover gone and my nausea abating, I can objectively reflect on these words and must say that I still feel the same visceral anger and need for action (in fact, it has deepened).
I agree that any full-scale retaliatory actions have risks for global destabilization, but's it is a risk we must take. Terrorists don't play by the rules of a civilized world. They don't abide by the "rules of engagement" in war. They are venomous, evil cockroaches that must be hunted down and eradicated or the disease will spread. If we appeal to humanity at this time ("think of the innocent people you might kill or the new fanatics that will be born"), then we are cowards and deserve this and more. If we don't act decisively, then their next act will be worse and the one after that will make this look like nothing.
Fear is their primary weapon, so they must now live in fear, and those who sponsor this terror and allow it to fester in their countries must also pay the price. If this militarism offends some of you, so be it.
By the way, I consider myself to be a peaceful person, a vegetarian (for fifteen years), a political liberal (usually), who is fascinated by the history and culture of many different people and places. But I am also an American, with fairly strong patriotic values (although I'm not a jingoist or apologist for American interests), a person who has flown regularly on United and American airlines, a person who has been to the top of both towers of the WTC (once fifteen years ago, then last year) and has adored the magic of New York City. I am an long-time employee of a major defense contractor (and I don't apologize for the choice of my careers - the best people I've met in my life are in the military) and folks I've worked with were in the Pentagon yesterday. The time has come to act to preserve freedom from fear and tyranny. Appeasement is the path to destruction; it's been tried and it has not worked. The world has tilted on its axis and we must put it right or spend our lives in abject terror.
As NubiWan so eloquently put it:
quote:
There are no innocents, there never were. "He who gives comfort and aid to my enemy, is my enemy." The world is as we find it, not as we might like it to be. To change it, is the privilege of only the victors. Our choice is simple, to be victims, or muster the will to be victors. Our enemies know and understand this all too well. The question is, can we, behind our very thin veil of civilization, remember it in time to perserve our own notion of culture and civility?
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 17:07:44 [Permalink]
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So I gather the general consensus is the bomb the hell out of a country that has had the hell bombed out of it for the last 20 years and has no collateral left to to damage??
Interesting strategy. Has never worked before, especially in Afghanistan but there could always be a first time.
I would suggest going after the big guy himself and watch the organization disintegrate and perhaps do the same with the Taliban. It wouldn't be an easy task to find these people but without funding and a safe place to hide out I would think that would do a lot to help. Of course, Israel has had this same strategy for years and they have been unable to stop it and everyone is always going on about how tough they are.
Now I ask everyone: Why will the US succeed where others have failed even though they have been at it for years. Is it because we are more angry and more hurt than the others? Are we better 'cause we're Americans? Seriously, does anyone have a good answer to this? I want to see them taken out as much as any of you but I think I am not being a bleeding heart but a realist when I say "fat chance."
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:17:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now I ask everyone: Why will the US succeed where others have failed even though they have been at it for years. Is it because we are more angry and more hurt than the others? Are we better 'cause we're Americans? Seriously, does anyone have a good answer to this? I want to see them taken out as much as any of you but I think I am not being a bleeding heart but a realist when I say "fat chance."
Okay, then what about the fact that now we have practically every single member of the UN on our side, willing to hunt down the persons responsible for this? Sure, the US alone probably couldn't, but with all this cooperation by our friend and neighbor countries, you can almost bet that there will be NO place on Earth where those responsible will be able to hide.
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:25:18 [Permalink]
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Somebody tell me why the US has a ban on assination? Nice, neat, little or no collateral damage. Go for the head of the snake, not the tail.
I agree this is war, but carpet bombing and killing civilians is NOT the answer. That makes us worse then they are, in my belief. Yes we should strike back, and HARD. But we should get the right target, and not kill civilians.
I am angry too. But the stark, irrational hatred type of anger I had yesterday, is being replaced by the cold calculating long term type of anger. Get the bastards. Make it hurt. Find out who did it and make sure they can't do it again.
But we should NOT let innocents that have no say in this suffer at our hands too.
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:33:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
But we should NOT let innocents that have no say in this suffer at our hands too.
From what I have been hearing this is exactly what people want now. The fact that everyone has been hunting Bin Laden for over a decade already is beside the point. Everyone wants to bomb someone knowing deep down how useless it will be.
Having the UN and NATO with us(finally) is a good start. That will be the way to defeat terrorism like this. Without a safe place to run too and train their lives will be significantly more difficult.
But I think I made an excellent point about Israel that I would like to see someone comment on. They have killed innocents left and right after suicide bombings for dedcades and did that stop them? Nope. Suicide bombings have continued and will continue. All those terrorist groups they have been hunting for years still exist. It's not what anyone wants to hear but it is a fact. Why is it going to be different for the US?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:36:36 [Permalink]
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Just a quick note on my "starry-eyed Pollyanna" statement, which I think may have been unclear--
I am optimistic about the basic humanity of the US people, not about any chance of appeasing the terrorists. My position is not that we should treat the jackals with kid gloves, it is that we should avoid killing innocent parties if we possibly can.
Yes, there are innocents. Imagine 11-year-old Saliyah, who helps her mother run the household and is being tutored by an uncle because she is not allowed to attend public school in Afghanistan. How can one pretend that she is not innocent? How can one say that the children, the penniless beggars, the mothers, deserve mutilation and death?
My point is not that bin Laden should not be pursued and destroyed, nor that the countries whose governments facilitate terrorist operations should not be held responsible.
Damn it, to bin Laden there are no innocents in the USA--he kills without discrimination. We are not bin Laden. When we must kill we should be sure of our purpose and our target. During both World Wars, during the Korean and Vietnam conflicts, and during the Gulf War the USA and its allies at least attempted to attack military targets. Mistakes were made. Civilians, far too many civilians, were killed. But indiscriminate killing of civilians is genocide: we did not engage in genocide then and we should not do so now.
Argh. I suspect I am not really arguing with anyone on this forum, because all of you are reasonable people and I have a great deal of respect for you. Sorry for the rant, sorry if I have not made myself clear and have been misunderstood. Emotions are high.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes"
Edited by - Dog_Ed on 09/12/2001 18:37:56 |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:59:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
There are those who do unspeakable acts in our (the US) name daily without our (citizens) knowlege. We have to stop propping up dictators and fascists and making heros out of terrorists.
Greg, two days ago I would have agreed with you. Our history is littered with stupid foreign policy decisions. We have propped up petty dictators and done many other things that the inhabitants of other nations have just cause to despise.
But yesterday I saw thousands (perhaps 10s of thousands) of Americans murdered. The same day I saw Palistinian children dancing in the street for joy. This isn't the time for recriminations. If we do nothing, do really think they won't do the same sort of thing again?
I really don't think it is possible for these people to hate us any more than they already do. Even if we were completely blameless, we would still be a target of terrorists and hate. We are an open democracy in a world full of petty tyrants. We are a land of religious freedom in a world of extreamist Theocracies. We are a wealthy nation in a world of countries impoverished by tyranies and cultural idiocies. There will always people who blame, resent, and hate us.
The desire of the people who committed this attrocity is nothing less than our destruction. This isn't about our past policy errors. This is about survival. If we can't be loved, then we had damn well better be feared.
Edited by - espritch on 09/12/2001 21:03:40
Edited by - espritch on 09/12/2001 21:07:16 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 22:56:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
If we can't be loved, then we had damn well better be feared.
Trish or someone else, what is it you guys say? OOOOH-RAH? Hoo-ya? Boo-ya?
'Cause that's what I want to yell when I read this! 
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 23:31:32 [Permalink]
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But yesterday I saw thousands (perhaps 10s of thousands) of Americans murdered. The same day I saw Palistinian children dancing in the street for joy. This isn't the time for recriminations. If we do nothing, do really think they won't do the same sort of thing again?"
The dancing in the street was a disgusting display, but these children don't fully understand what they're dancing about- they're easily misled, and it's not clear the loudest represent a majority... often, a minority of the most obnoxious, annoying, and stupid people of a group are the one's that are noticed.
Retaliation? Absolutely, and hard- but make sure it's directed where it will accomplish our ends- punishment of the guilty, and to deter other terrorists. Random destruction won't accomplish that... screwdrivers can open boxes that dynamite can't. If we have to use dynamite, so be it, but our attack has to be well directed, lest we just jettison alot of material and waste lives.
Ron White |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 23:44:13 [Permalink]
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I was raised to think that random violence was un-American.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 23:52:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
I was raised to think that random violence was un-American.
Again I have to ask, who is talking about random violence? I've not heard of anyone saying we should go blow up a shopping mall, or start shooting down passenger jets filled with Palestinians. Military retaliation involves military and governmental targets.
I'm getting so frustrated at people saying that military retalitation is in any way equal to terrorist activity. This is just nonsense.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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