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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  13:03:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mathew

You all speak of Critical thinking and proof thru Science and Objectivity.
Do we? Scientific "proof" is hard to come by.
quote:
But you Sceptics define BS in 1000 Words and Attack God's Children in every Thread.
I was taught that all people, be they believers or not, are God's children. As such, I'd like you to point out any attacks we have made against everyone, in any thread.
quote:
When your own BS Hits the Fan you Scatter like Empty Souls so your stickfights doesn't impress me, Wendy
I'd also like you to provide an example of this claim.
quote:
Dave W:
Faith's doesn't come for free, It's a risc to take when sailing into uncharted territories.
Discoveries and Treasures Doesn't come in Cerealboxes wrapped in celluloid.
You're right, there are risks when treading into the unknown. But it sure seems to me that people use faith as protection from such risks, and it is not, itself a risk. After all, with so many faithful in the world, having faith seems much safer than not.
quote:
You Attack what You don't know and you Sceptics have Choosen Side.
I'd like you to point out any attack I've made against, say, the Erdu language, or the mixing of a Zombie, or the books of Ian Flemming, or any other of the numerous things I don't know.

Beyond that, is there anyone in the world who hasn't chosen a side on some issue or other? You have obviously chosen a side, so it seems hypocritical for you to criticize others for doing so.
quote:
You Couldn't Believe A Fact Written on Your nose if it didn't fit your Scewed Worldimage!
Analyze That
[Shrug] I suppose the simplest analysis is that the same could perhaps be said of you, and so you're just projecting.

But, more constructively, what facts would you have us examine?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  13:20:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Evolution is a mechinism for speciation, not a prophet. Perhaps thats why they think its a religion because they think Evolution is some idiot who asked to be nailed to a cross. (By inaction)

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  20:59:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mathew
Verlch make you uneasy Because He's used by GOD.
That is an untrue statement.
Verlch makes us annoyed and/or amused, mostly. But certainly not uneasy.

quote:
As changeing Questions and not fitting a narrowminded and streamlined approach
That says a lot about what you know about skepticism and critical thinking: not very much. Fundamentalistic Christians on the other hand are by definition narrowminded.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  23:19:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
Interesting signature Mathew,
quote:
Angry Child tells Lucifer: Let's Dance!
GOD Almighty asks Angry Child not to Hurry, rest and play with the other children at SFN for awhile.
Angry Child respond, slightly annoyed, but they are boring!

We are all grownups here. Children will probably find many of the ideas expressed here confusing and/or boring.

If God did ask you to join in on the discussion here at SFN, He may have been hoping that you'd learn something.

Maybe God wants His 'Angry Child' to grow up.
Edited by - dv82matt on 01/18/2005 23:27:53
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Mathew
New Member

Sweden
25 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  02:38:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mathew a Private Message
Thnx. Dr. Mabuse and dv82matt

My Childhood got me much confusion and Disbelief.
I couldn't understand why the world was so Hostile and Disordered when GOD the Supreme Being presumable created the whole thing.
It made me more concerned about function than figures.
Everything had to be tested and referenced empiricaly.
I've got a rageing spirit which make my body suffer and give me little of sleep.
With so much disbelief and untrust I hunt for truth like a the proverbial Moth to the Lamp.
As Human I have my faults and errors, as a Truthseeker I must admitt it.
Start with myself: If the instrument is broken what good is the measurement?
Remembering facts and figures isn't easy for me but in my shooldays I could recite PI with 42 digits.
My IQ is about 127.

Have know 4 proffesions:
Machinemechanic, graduated best in class Ljusdal 1989.
Machineengineer 1990 at Katrineholm KTS, Komvux. 4-years in 5-termines, unfinished due to pesonal crises (I was rather slow as young, had to many bothers).
CNC-Operator in 1992, AMU Norrkämsta Ljusdal
Licenced A+ Servicetechnician as part of CISCO CCNA, a 2-year course finished in only 6-months!
Now I'm practice as a Personal Assistant since autumn 2003.

My field of Knowledge are:
Mechanics
HD=Human Develpoment.
Psychology
CT=Computer Technology.
Sexuality
Media

Languages:
Swedish
English
Some German and Portuguese.
Signlanguage and Romanian with some help through my wife

That's a short presentation of your Snotty Kiddo Mathew.
Celebrate my 34 birthday in April and feels it's time to grow up, eternal is young for a newborn!
I listen and stay corrected, I defenitly needs more Humiliation.

Angry Child tells Lucifer: Let's Dance!
GOD Almighty asks Angry Child not to Hurry, rest and play with the other children at SFN for awhile.
Angry Child respond, slightly annoyed, but they are boring!
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Mathew
New Member

Sweden
25 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  02:44:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mathew a Private Message
Dave W: Sceptics don't like the concept of ID?

Angry Child tells Lucifer: Let's Dance!
GOD Almighty asks Angry Child not to Hurry, rest and play with the other children at SFN for awhile.
Angry Child respond, slightly annoyed, but they are boring!
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend

Netherlands
231 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  06:30:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Plyss a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mathew

Dave W: Sceptics don't like the concept of ID?



I can only speak for myself, but I'm rarely enthusiastic about vague, unsubstantiated claims like ID. Currently the way the concept comes across is something like: "Sometime, somewhere, somehow some Designer started life and has been guiding it ever since."

Could you provide us with a more specific version of ID as you perceive it?
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  07:27:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
Mathew, skeptics only require proof. Skeptics don't accept ideas without any proof or evidence. There is absolutely no evidence to support ID, therefore a skeptics cannot accept it.

Plain and simple.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  07:30:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mathew

Dave W: Sceptics don't like the concept of ID?
Why should they? ID offers no new science, just an argument that God exists where we are ignorant. And, since those areas of ignorance get smaller every day (thus squishing God into smaller and smaller places), ID is not only bad science, but bad religion. There are plenty of good, faithful Christians who are simply disgusted by ID, too.

ID began as a political movement to introduce the teaching of Special Creation in science classes, and it continues to be a political movement.

ID is both anti-science and anti-religion.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Mathew
New Member

Sweden
25 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  08:27:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mathew a Private Message
OK, furshur and Dave W.

I maybe have broken the concept from your to mine perspective
I am just briefly familiar with ID as religio-political concept teached today.
Used it as teached in my Protestantic Church and after own Beliefe.
Sceptics: I am a sceptic and a Beliver, why should I else linger here?
Contradictory? GOD said in his word. "Taste me and see that i'm Good".
So I tested him, tested, tested until I've got a respons. The Sceptic way or not?
Believers: Everyone Belives in something or else we turn to Nihilist.
If you turn a switch, you Belive if you hope your effort is rewarding.
You don't do a Predictionanalysis of the Lights to work when turning a Lightswitch
You never do servicecheck of the houses powernetwork or status of the surrounding Powergrid Before turning that switch, if it's not proven faulty!
Why? Because the risc is minimal you don't give it a thought.

Angry Child tells Lucifer: Let's Dance!
GOD Almighty asks Angry Child not to Hurry, rest and play with the other children at SFN for awhile.
Angry Child respond, slightly annoyed, but they are boring!
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  08:41:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Well, since we're sharing life stories...

Born on 1984 (fun year, heh?), got ill by eight months old - rheumatoid arthritis. A couple months passed before it was diagnosed; before that it was only pain and high fever. Passed through a surgery by age 4, to fix my legs, that were all twisted and bent inwards due to arthritis.

Consequence to arthritis, other than pain, was ostheoporosis. Can't walk and all my motion was hindered by it - joints and muscles are weak because they don't have a lot of grasp in the bones.

Childhood wasn't exactly normal, as I was (am) in a wheelchair since ever. Therefore, while other kids ran about and played and climbed stuff, I was locked home reading. Which explains why I started writing a book age nine, finished age twelve, published age 15. Never had a 'normal' childhood or adolescence.

20 years, turning 21 on November, and have a IQ of 135; test was in english, though, which is my second language (self-taught).

Speak english and portuguese (first language). Trying to teach myself french and german, but it ain't working that well. Tried japanese, too.

Majoring in Computer Science, two years ahead. Never studied, really; college's no effort. 'Hobbies' are horses, anything pertaining animals, computer graphics and design, writing and stuff like that. Astronomy and astrophysics, too

So there you have it.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  08:58:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mathew

OK, furshur and Dave W.

I maybe have broken the concept from your to mine perspective
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
quote:
I am just briefly familiar with ID as religio-political concept teached today.
I can suggest reading The Wedge Strategy to get a better understanding of the origins of the modern ID movement.
quote:
Used it as teached in my Protestantic Church and after own Beliefe.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
quote:
Sceptics: I am a sceptic and a Beliver, why should I else linger here?
Some believers linger here in order to ridicule skeptics. Like verlch, for instance.
quote:
Contradictory? GOD said in his word. "Taste me and see that i'm Good".
So I tested him, tested, tested until I've got a respons. The Sceptic way or not?
That would depend on the methodology you used to test God. I am not aware of any methodologies for testing any deity which are both strict and reliable, since God allegedly can change reality.
quote:
Believers: Everyone Belives in something or else we turn to Nihilist.
If you turn a switch, you Belive if you hope your effort is rewarding.
You don't do a Predictionanalysis of the Lights to work when turning a Lightswitch
You never do servicecheck of the houses powernetwork or status of the surrounding Powergrid Before turning that switch, if it's not proven faulty!
Why? Because the risc is minimal you don't give it a thought.
Of course, comparing faith in God to faith in your lights does little but trivialize God. If I flip a switch and the light fails to come on, it poses no threat to my everlasting soul, I just change the bulb (or call the power company). For many believers, though, if they woke up one morning to find God missing, it would change their entire lives.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  09:36:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mathew
Sceptics: I am a sceptic and a Beliver, why should I else linger here?
Contradictory?
To me is seems contradictory.
quote:
GOD said in his word. "Taste me and see that i'm Good".
So I tested him, tested, tested until I've got a respons. The Sceptic way or not?
That is in dispute. There are several members of SFN with a background in religion, especially Christianity. (I myself was a member of Pingstkyrkan (Pentecostal Church) in a mid-sized town in the region of Skaraborg. )
Anyway, we have done some tasting and testing ourselves, and have come to a different conclusion. This difference in results suggest that the tasting and testing described in the Bible is not a scientific or objective method. As such, the result is too much depended on personal bias and wishful thinking. My conclusion is that there is yet no evidence of God.

quote:
You don't do a Predictionanalysis of the Lights to work when turning a Lightswitch
Perhaps not a prediction analysis as such, but i do predict that nothing has changed since the last time I used it. That's not a belief. I've heard this "everyone has a belief" many times before. But repeating it doesn't make it true. And the comparison between belief in a light switch and God is ludicrous.

quote:
You never do servicecheck of the houses powernetwork or status of the surrounding Powergrid Before turning that switch, if it's not proven faulty!

Why?
That's also a stupid question. Experience has taught us that status quo is the norm, and can be predicted in such instances.
Again, belief does not come into it.

(Edited for spelling)

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 01/19/2005 09:40:06
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  10:04:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
I know how lights work - by flipping the switch I complete the circuit the current goes throught the filimant making it glow. I expect it to work because it worked last time. I also know that the light may burn out, the circuit breaker may have tripped or a wire came loose. This has nothing to do with faith.

Faith comes into play when we have no evidence or understanding for something and yet we beilieve.



If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  11:21:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
ID fails as a science, mainly, because you must assume a designer in order to "prove" design.

It makes no testable predictions.

The advocates of ID deliberately misuse statistics in one of their arguments in support of ID. (they knowingly tell a lie to promote their argument)

and so on and so on...

ID is not science. It is religion.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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