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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
 Posted - 09/22/2001 : 19:10:16
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Ok folks, I apologize in advance for this, and will likely be banned from the SFN for stirring the pot and being so politically incorrect, but so be it (I think I'm pretty sick of message boards, anyway, and my blood pressure will appreciate the gesture).
A patented rubysue rant is quite necessary now. I have spend a LOT of time in these last few days reading opinions and articles from the political center, left and right about what happened. I have always been an iconoclast in my political views (with leanings toward the liberal side), but my opinions are now quite clear on this horrible event and are surprisingly “conservative” (go ahead and throw stones, fellow SFNers; being skeptical, in my honest opinion, does not force me to believe in any particular ideological approach to issues and solutions). I may not be alone in these opinions, given that several of the threads on this subject are now reduced to dialogues between like-minded pundits patting each other on the back and many other SFN regulars have stopped posting comments.
First rant item: Ten days after probably the most horrifying event that I've seen in my sheltered and pampered life (so far), I must say that I am still struggling with a wide range of emotions, including deep grief, sadness, fear, and anger. But, damn it all, I must also say that the thing that depresses me most is reading the types of comments and petty nonsense that has reared its ugly head on this and other message boards. People from all over the world (not just Americans) are suffering enormous pain and fear and are still searching for loved ones but idle message board pundits obsessively speculate on how past policies (all the way back to slavery) of the U.S. government caused this horror and that we got what we deserved. Blaming the victims for happened to them is the classic response of those who lack empathy and have some bizarre, one-sided axe to grind that ignores the full range of facts, simply because some of those facts contradict their political agenda (and this has been true of liberals and conservatives throughout history). Yes, (sigh) I agree that U.S. foreign policy has been a disaster at times in our history (I say this before I have to read the same obnoxious and worn-out arguments over and over that will be posted in response to this), but this country has also worked tirelessly to help those who need help (to the tune of billions and billions of dollars of foreign aid, assistance, etc.). We intervened in Kosovo to protect the Muslim minorities and force out a criminal dictator (I guess bin Laden doesn't care about those Muslims). We sent troops into Sudan strictly for humanitarian purposes to help the starving population in that benighted country and had to watch our servicemen's bodies get dragged through the street. We've tried and tried and tried to forge a lasting peace in the Middle East, only to see it destroyed by fanaticism. One fact that really surprised me: Bill Clinton met more times with Yasser Arafat than any other foreign leader during his eight years in office, but when a fair and acceptable peace and land agreement was almost reached between Israel and the Palestinians, the fanatics in the latter group responded with waves of terror and suicide bombings, which resulted in similar responses from the Israelis and the election of an Israeli leader who is much less interested in peace. When your nation is an economic “superpower, creating an appropriate foreign policy is a complicated and delicate balancing act that must be flexible if you wish to avoid isolationism and want to advance democratic ideals across the world. Since many other countries have no interest in embracing democratic ideals, this approach may piss some of them off. Perhaps we haven't always been on the “right” side in conflicts and have supported crass dictators who waged their own campaigns of terror; this was due primarily to our long cold war aversion to anything communist
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 09/22/2001 : 19:37:09 [Permalink]
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Rubysue,
Why do you think you need to apologize in advance and fear you would get banned for what you said? Differing opinions are more than welcome here. Hate mongering would not be tolerated and perhaps a few other things but as far as I know we haven't had to do such a thing to anyone. I feel badly that you think you don't have a right to express your opinion without fear of censure.
You have every right to be pissed off about some of the things you see other people doing(protesting for peace,examining past policies etc) but you should understand that these other people in turn are pissed off about some things that they see going on. Sure the more extreme views are more likely to get to you but why do you take it so personally? This is America. You don't have to agree, but these other viewpoints are just as valid to those that have them as you have yours. Is that too much to ask?
I still think you misunderstand looking at past policies. No one said the government had to be perfect but when mistakes are made the purpetrators should be called on it. It's not just our right but our duty and I'm sorry you don't see it that way.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2001 : 20:00:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ok folks, I apologize in advance for this, and will likely be banned from the SFN for stirring the pot and being so politically incorrect,
I doubt it. What's this forum for, if not to express our ideas? If you were banned for this post it would end my interest in this board.
quote:
...idle message board pundits obsessively speculate on how past policies (all the way back to slavery) of the U.S. government caused this horror and that we got what we deserved.
Yes, some have raised the question of how the American government's foreign policy may have played a role in what happened. That's called democracy: the free exchange of ideas and opinions, in the hope and expectation that such discussion will lead to better decisions in the future.
Perhaps I'm a pie-eyed optimist, but I have not interpreted any of those comments as claiming that America is "responsible for" the attacks, or that the victims "deserved" their fates. What I see is an attempt to understand the motivations behind an otherwise inexpicable act.
quote:
We intervened in Kosovo to protect the Muslim minorities and force out a criminal dictator... Bill Clinton met more times with Yasser Arafat than any other foreign leader during his eight years in office...
Yes, the terrorists practice selective blindness. So do I, I'm afraid. I'm baffled by the notion that such an attack could ever be justifiable, under any philosophy. Perhaps my life has been even more pampered and sheltered than yours. Maybe if I read enough different opinions in a variety of media, I can overcome that confusion.
quote:
This inability to be “perfect” at all times in our foreign affairs in no way, shape or form justifies acts of terrifying mass murder that have committed by those that hate us simply because we stand in the way of their desire to implement a reign of fear across the globe.
Quite so. Neither does it relieve us of our responsibility as citizens to understand the issues (including our opponents' point of view) so that we may forge better policies in the future.
quote:
Second rant item: Bush asks Americans to have a Day of Prayer and Remembrance...
My reactions to this were very much along the same lines as yours. That may be (in part) because, although I am an agnostic, I come from a religious background, and I know and respect many people of faith. I have a feeling that, in the end, it's not so much whether or not you believe, or what you believe in; it's what you do in your life, what you stand for and how you behave to your fellow man. Nobody has the goodness concession wrapped up, but organizations like Catholic Charities and Lutheran World Hunger do an awful lot of good in the world. I may not agree with their metaphysics, but I'm more than willing to grant them their God concept if it leads them to such actions -- as long as they grant me the same courtesy.
>>>>>>> Reply continued....
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2001 : 20:04:47 [Permalink]
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...continued...
quote:
There is now burgeoning attack of mushy, cowardly thinking manifesting itself in the “peace at any price” crowd (populating some university campuses) who can't abide the thought that we may actually want to punish the wrongdoers for this atrocity through possible military action.
There are plenty of folks beating the war drums, too. Isn't it a wonderful thing that we live in a society where both opinions can coexist? Isn't it good to be reminded that we should not let our blood-red rage lead us to answer one atrocity with another? I sincerely hope that the military action, when it comes, is well-planned and produces a minimum of casualties among non-combatants... that, at the end of the day, we can consider ourselves a notch or two above the terrorists in that regard.
quote:
You are the same apologists who turned a blind eye toward the geopolitical goals and Holocaust policies of the Nazis because you feared for your personal peace and didn't want to think that badly about fellow Europeans.
I think that's probably an oversimplification. And of course, I imagine you mean these are the intellectual heirs of said apologists, not the same ones  . Otherwise, I'd say I mostly agree with you... sometimes our opponents don't play by our rules, and we have to meet them on their own terms.
However, this particular confrontation is a deeply complex and difficult one, and no simple answers exist on any level, including strategic and tactical ones. If any true answers are to be found, we can be sure they won't be the ones that come from the end of the gun -- at least, not entirely. For every terrorist you kill, a dozen more are created -- and the cycle of hate is perpetuated. I'm sure I don't have to mention the many examples of intractible, multi-generational conflicts that are ongoing in the world.
It is only reasonable to start thinking about what form an eventual solution might take, and how our next few actions may affect our options later on. Yes, military measures are likely to be part of the mix, but we shouldn't expect them to provide a satisfying conclusion as they did in 1945. This isn't that kind of war. So we'd better start putting together a different toolkit.
Thanks for your rant, and for the opportunity to comment on it.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2001 : 20:47:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
You have every right to be pissed off about some of the things you see other people doing(protesting for peace,examining past policies etc) but you should understand that these other people in turn are pissed off about some things that they see going on. Sure the more extreme views are more likely to get to you but why do you take it so personally? This is America. You don't have to agree, but these other viewpoints are just as valid to those that have them as you have yours. Is that too much to ask?
I still think you misunderstand looking at past policies. No one said the government had to be perfect but when mistakes are made the purpetrators should be called on it. It's not just our right but our duty and I'm sorry you don't see it that way.
Atomic, you are one of the main reasons that I believe I have now posted my last thread on this board. I'm all for differing opinions (and always have been), but it is apparent from your patronizing tone that my opinion is not really considered "valid" because it does not fit in with your political orthodoxy. This quote from you says it all - what you really want is the last word and you will wear down everyone here until they either shut up or agree with you (being a moderator gives you the luxury of immediately challenging anything that's posted and then shutting off further discussion by posting your same opinion again and again and again...).
Just take a look at some of the other posts on this tragedy - you grind and grind and grind at the same "blame the victims" axe and U.S. Foreign Policy demon until the only people posting responses are SFN members that coincidentally have the same opinion.
Go right ahead and continue to toot your horn on this issue. It wouldn't matter how many examples I could come up with that showed when the United States did the RIGHT thing in their foreign policy. I HAVE ALSO ADMITTED, MORE TIMES THAN I CAN COUNT, THAT YOU HAVE A VALID POINT, which tells me that you are not really reading my posts. You, however, will not grant me the same benefit of the doubt and ever concede that I might also be right.
I don't take any of this "personally" by the way, but I do resent this domination of the board and the way my opinions have been swept aside by political correctness.
I have better things to do in life than continue these pointless arguments, so have at it and try to solve the world's problems on this little corner of the internet.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2001 : 22:01:37 [Permalink]
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rubysue
your opinion is always worth hearing.
comrade billyboy |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2001 : 22:53:14 [Permalink]
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| She is right you know. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 04:03:38 [Permalink]
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Please, Rubysue, dont go!!
-me. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 04:37:58 [Permalink]
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All I can say is "Huh?" I don't see that what you've said is anything more than a personal attack that is utterly unfair. So what I've said is so threatening? So threatening that no one can stomach the discussion? Why not just ignore it and go discuss something else or whatever rather than say something like that?
Have you considered how people that don't quite agree with you feel? All I here is talk of revenge, and "justice" and 'kill all them arabs." To me that is grind, grind and grind some more and I have to hear it 24 hours a day. Have you considered that?
I've brought up what I have because I think it's important. Just as important, if not more so than going after these few terrorists.
And just what do you mean by "domination of the board" anyway? You imply that people are being kept from voicing their opinions. That's pretty offensive considering how it's simply not the case.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 04:53:58 [Permalink]
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The idea that some of us that criticize U.S. foreign policy are blaming the victims is of course ridiculous and insulting. Terrorism, whether practiced by U.S. or Muslim sources is still something that cannot be defended. The U.S. policy in Iraq is "We'll kill you until you kill your leaders." We just got back the same message. Both messages are insane. We are all victims, it's just that the U.S. has more ability right now to kill millions of people than bin-Laden.
I'm sure that the U.S. has helped many people. They've also murdered millions.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 09/23/2001 06:59:07 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 05:11:03 [Permalink]
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Speaking of skepticism, what is the scientific foundation of "justice?" I mean, where is the scientific justification for the idea that getting a criminal and "punishing" that person (and in this case people who have no part in the original crime) helps anyone?
As a member of the War Resisters League, I do not necessarily stand against protecting ourselves, but I have yet to see a war that is not a crime against humanity. Most pacifists are not for "peace at any price." Peace at any price is not peace. However, if we don't look at our own behaviors, is that peace?
The following is from an article by Tim Wise at Alternet.org called "The Racism of American Warmongering."
"This is not to say that any of these things, no matter how irresponsible or even criminal warrant an act the likes of what we saw September 11th. But there is something to be said for understanding why no one likes you. If all the other kids in the sandbox think you're a thug and a bully, then after a while you'd best stop trying to beat them all into submission, or thinking that they are the problem, and instead, begin to turn some of that analysis inward. That's what you would do, anyway, if you wanted to actually get to the bottom of the conflict on the playground. If, on the other hand, your main concern were showing what a badass you were, then maybe this wouldn't matter much to you at all. And in that case, you would set out to show those other kids who was boss, who was king of the hill. You would continue to provoke them, to attack them, and then act shocked when they hit back."
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 09/23/2001 07:01:48 |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 07:19:44 [Permalink]
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I resent being purposly misconstrued as 'blaming the victim'. I have done nothing of the sort. I am extremely angry that a group of terrorists could see any type of justification in what they did. I want to see them destroyed.
I am angry that we took others children and created tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lunatic ninjas to fight our proxy war with the Soviets and then after that war, let them loose on the world.
I'm angry that our government is much more interested in maintaining corporate profits than it's citizen's safety.
I'm angry that corporations are already lining up at the wartime budget tit and right-wing politicians are talking about the "political capitol" to push through more tax cuts for the super rich along with other right-wing agenda - and I'm considered the anti-American traitor.
I'm angry that our President had the unmitigated gall to call for a world wide "war on terrorism and the nations that support them" while at the same moment, the US is training terrorists inside our borders at the School of the Americas (or whatever they renamed it) and is arming and helping terrorist groups in Central and South America.
I'm angry that I have members of my family who don't want to speak to me.
I'm angry that the politicians are going to shred the Constitution with the blessing of the American people. Did anyone at all consider profiling Gulf War veterans after Timothy McVeigh was arrested? Do you think we will have the same freedoms in the future, or do you think that is not important?
Greg.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 09:48:04 [Permalink]
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Know what makes me angry?
People who whine that "I resent being purposly misconstrued as 'blaming the victim'." and then spend the rest of the blurb blaming the victim.
There isn't any misconstrueding going on at all, you do nothing but reinforce rubysues statements.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 11:21:36 [Permalink]
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looking at the reasons why some folks hate america is hardly blaming the victim. american economic and cultural influence is pervasive.
skeptical examination of the motives of our leaders is also not blaming the victim. politicians and corporate executives might very well be looking after their own best intrests and not the nation's.
we need to support our government and leaders in time of crisis, but we should never decieve ourselves about their purity of intent. every so often, what's good for the leaders is also good for the people.
comrade billyboy |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 11:42:29 [Permalink]
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I lied - Here's another post. Again, sorry if I offend some folks on this board, but this has to be said.
I went through all of the threads again about this subject (in particular, the ones with political overtones) and my assessment is indeed correct. The later posts in most of these threads are essentially reduced to opinion-reinforcing dialogues between Atomic and Greg with the occasional lob from Gorgo. Other SFN members that managed to creep into the conversation were defensive and tentative and apologetic for having opinions that may not follow this leftist U.S. foreign policy demon orthodoxy. Finally, the discussion in the threads completely dries up, leaving you as the "victors" with the last word.
quote:
Have you considered how people that don't quite agree with you feel? All I here is talk of revenge, and "justice" and 'kill all them arabs." To me that is grind, grind and grind some more and I have to hear it 24 hours a day. Have you considered that?
So, I have to consider your feelings that justice in this case is inappropriate? I have to agree with you that murderers should not be punished for their actions, because the victim (the U.S.) might have been asking for it? I sure hope that I'm never the victim of a crime that you witness, because you will probably blame my childhood indiscretions or political beliefs for my victimization rather than focusing on the criminal. I guess we should just let this whole issue go and hope that the little fanatics are happy now that they've wreaked havoc on our nation and the world's economy. How many times did the elementary school bully steal your lunch money?
I have NEVER advocated killing Arabs injudiciously, although my anger was quite profound on the night of September 11 (and was likely fueled by too much alcohol). I believe that retaliation is certainly appropriate and will use all of the resources at our disposal. This doesn't mean that we're going to smite terrorists and anyone else in the neighborhood from the face of the earth, but we may cut off their finances and their political support and use diplomatic weapons wherever possible. Military action is certainly appropriate if other mechanisms fail.
It is now 12 days since this event and the United States has yet to fire one shot in this campaign, but many of you act like we dropped the bomb. Get a grip.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 12:36:35 [Permalink]
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Well, rubysue, I've read and reread and then rereread your original posting, and can find very little with which to disagree.
I can add a few small ideas though:- There's nothing wrong in finding your opinions swinging toward the 'conservative' side. Some of us manage to be quite skeptical and conservative simultaneously.
- As you can read on another thread, I too was confused by some folks' reaction against the day of mourning...and I asked for clarification, and received a lot of helpful input. I stopped posting in that folder after getting one reply which implied that I had no right to attempt to understand, since my (assumed) belief system is different from other posters'.
- I hate the idea of war, and I regret the necessity that has been thrust upon us...and I know that more innocents (on both sides) will suffer. But it *is* a necessity, I believe.
Thanks for putting your ideas into words, and don't apologize for 'ranting'. |
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