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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2001 : 12:58:28 [Permalink]
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I don't think that most of the people killed on the 11th were the authors of U.S. crimes any more than the people who will die in Afghanistan after being conscripted to die to the last man are the authors of Afghanistan crimes.
So, I'm not sure what the point is, except that you needed to express your anger, which is okay, but it is misplaced. Your anger comes from your beliefs about yourself, and does not add much information to this discussion.
Those that are interested in "justice" would do well to look at the criminals being harbored in the U.S., such as Henry Kissinger , both George Bushes, and Bill Clinton.
quote:
Know what makes me angry?
People who whine that "I resent being purposly misconstrued as 'blaming the victim'." and then spend the rest of the blurb blaming the victim.
There isn't any misconstrueding going on at all, you do nothing but reinforce rubysues statements.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 13:39:48 [Permalink]
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I, myself, do not want to be a part of the killing of more *innocent people* in the name of getting to the perpetrators of these horrible deeds. I blame differences in religions on the crimes of the world. Here we have people of similar faiths seemingly killing each other over the subtle differences between their faiths. And then, there is retaliation, and further retaliation on the innocent descendants of their enemies.
Killing people is evil, regardless of what anybody believes. I, personally, do not blame myself for anything which I did not, myself, do against others. I come from a *Quaker* family who was part of the *Underground Railroad* in this country, but I find that the descendants of the recipients of the aid to freedom often give no credit to the aid given by them and they are simply lumped together with the guilty. That is fine with me, because my ancestors, not I, did the helping. I can only take credit or blame for my own actions. However, I absolutely refuse to take even a tiny part of the blame for the actions of others -- any others. Anywhere. I refuse to take on the guilt of others.
Now those of you who wish to see more murders against innocent people should rethink your positions.
Our innocent victims should not die in vain; creating more innocent victims is hardly the way to go.
Nasty people live with nasty people (themselves) 24 hours a day, all year long, and cannot get away from themselves for one instant. It pays not to be a nasty person.
ljbrs  
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 14:22:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
So, I have to consider your feelings that justice in this case is inappropriate? I have to agree with you that murderers should not be punished for their actions, because the victim (the U.S.) might have been asking for it? I sure hope that I'm never the victim of a crime that you witness, because you will probably blame my childhood indiscretions or political beliefs for my victimization rather than focusing on the criminal. I guess we should just let this whole issue go and hope that the little fanatics are happy now that they've wreaked havoc on our nation and the world's economy. How many times did the elementary school bully steal your lunch money?
Hey rubysue, didn't you just say you went back and reread the posts on this subject? I think you'd better go back and reread them again because if you had you would see that I have said that we should indeed have a military response. Did you miss all the times I said that? I said it a lot so you had lots of opportunities to catch it.
Here I go again: Why desire is for the US to be cautious and consider what's happened in the past and perhaps avoid making new mistakes. What's the problem here?
Here's a major concern. So we have some backing by Pakistan so we send troops there to go invade Afghanistan. The Pakistan government said it's fine so everything's kosher and we get bin laden and haul him in. There is a real danger that the Pakistan government could be endangered by the US presence. We could end up making new bin Ladens, too. Putting US troops into the middle east is what started all of our bin Laden problems in the first place. This is hardly a stretch.
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I have NEVER advocated killing Arabs injudiciously, although my anger was quite profound on the night of September 11 (and was likely fueled by too much alcohol). I believe that retaliation is certainly appropriate and will use all of the resources at our disposal. This doesn't mean that we're going to smite terrorists and anyone else in the neighborhood from the face of the earth, but we may cut off their finances and their political support and use diplomatic weapons wherever possible. Military action is certainly appropriate if other mechanisms fail.
Did I accuse you of wanting to kill arabs injudiciously? I don't think so. I heard a lot of talk about that here and there but I don't recall hearing it from you or accusing you of it.
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It is now 12 days since this event and the United States has yet to fire one shot in this campaign, but many of you act like we dropped the bomb. Get a grip.
This is so unfair. I thought this was a rationists board. Seeing discussion here take this turn is very unsettling. Not all of us think as you do rubysue and that's just the way it is.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 15:12:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
This is so unfair. I thought this was a rationists board. Seeing discussion here take this turn is very unsettling. Not all of us think as you do rubysue and that's just the way it is.
So, you'll hammer away at it until I shut up and go away. Well, I think you've got your wish as I am apparently a persona non grata on this board for having the guts to speak my mind. The appeasers will likely win the battle because they have no fortitude to face evil and destroy it, hence the war will eventually go to those that will destroy our very foundation of civilization.
quote:
Now those of you who wish to see more murders against innocent people should rethink your positions.
Our innocent victims should not die in vain; creating more innocent victims is hardly the way to go.
Nasty people live with nasty people (themselves) 24 hours a day, all year long, and cannot get away from themselves for one instant. It pays not to be a nasty person.
Thank you for such "kind" words, lbjrs. I'm sure you are a perfectly lovely person and I apologize for being such a nasty-minded bitch who is just rarin' to kill them innocents (I never said that, but that's beside the point to you, apparently). I'm so glad the Quakers and other isolationist pacifists like you did not get their way after Pearl Harbor was attacked. Hitler would have truly enjoyed lining you up to go into gas chambers while laughing at your naivete. I'm sure we can also ask these terrorists to kindly avoid targeting your peace rallies the next time they attack (and, make no mistake, there will be a next time, regardless of what we do).
Bah, humbug: The SFN is obviously now a bastion of radical thought that has abandoned all pretenses at rationalism.
Ta, ta, ya'all. Keep warm thinking those fuzzy thoughts.
 
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 17:05:45 [Permalink]
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Damn it, rubysue! Just got to read a couple of yer posts on BABB before you gave up on it. Now don't you stop here! Give us a little bit of credit, the last post isn't always "the last word" on an issue, and know that you know it, too. Don't always agree with every dot of an "i" or the cross of a "t" of yours, but have always found your post worthwhile and thoughtful. Your voice is needed here, if these exchanges aren't to revert to a post with a series of "Me too's." Just take a stress pill, or have a toddy, whatever it is, you do to calm down down a bit, and then come back here, give us hell, and set the record straight. 
Have had a chance to cool down quite a bit since 911, and my initial hot blinding anger, has cooled as well, to cold hard steel. Hell, know that we paid to help train Ol' Ben Slami and his group, too many others, and have spent hours wondering why their ilk hate America and the free world so much.., in the past. Would have had to agree that Greg, Gorgo, and others, raise some good points of concern.., in the past. Even now, concede their right to having reservations, that is what America and the freedom loving world is all about, afterall.
But now is a time for rallying IMO, and don't know much, but do know, for every terrorist killed, there is one less terrorist. The more killed the better, as far as i'm concerned. Signed up and served during the Cuba Missile crisis and set foot in Nam only twice on TDY. But do know personally, war is a dirty, messy business to be avoided. But this war has been visited upon us, on our own soil, i don't give a rat's @ss what the terrorist's motives were, they have killed our own, and they must die. The people of America and the free world, understand that this is war, and believe they know what to do about it. Hope our leadership have the wisdom to aid and assist, and the courage to finish it.
Now is not the time for 'understanding,' but of action. My only daughter is steaming toward the middle east, now, as a doctor aboard a coverted merchant ship, now a hospital ship and a choice target. So you will have to forgive me, if i seem insensitive to reservations and objections. I want this war won completely, as swiftly as possible, and her safe return from harm's way, to watch her with my grandson again. Till then, I wish her and her brothers in arms, good hunting.
When the bloody work is done, then will join again in trying to understand hatred, and hoping to find ways to prevent it and its outbreaks. Join with the sentiments of rubysue, Zanman, and others of like minds here.
"The object of war is not to die for your country,
but to make the other bastard, die for his."
- General George Patton -
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 17:33:48 [Permalink]
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Actually, for every martyr there are probably three more.
What you are telling us is to remind us that George Bush is now the dictator (if he wasn't before) and the rest of us better shut up and hope that we create a lot of martyrs.
Watch out atheists and skeptics and freethinkers, the fundies have won, and taken over.
quote:
But now is a time for rallying IMO, and don't know much, but do know, for every terrorist killed, there is one less terrorist.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 18:10:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually, for every martyr (killed) there are probably three more (created).
Which is precisely why the diplomats, politicians, newsmedia and indeed all of us must make the world see that these attacks were *crimes*, rather than acts of religious fanaticism.quote:
What you are telling us is to remind us that George Bush is now the dictator (if he wasn't before) and the rest of us better shut up and hope that we create a lot of martyrs.
Watch out atheists and skeptics and freethinkers, the fundies have won, and taken over.
All I can think of to reply to this is that I hope you are enjoying your visit to our planet. |
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steinhenge
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 19:04:40 [Permalink]
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"Seeing discussion here take this turn is very unsettling."
I'll say. I come here everyday because I enjoy hearing the opinions of a variety of quality critical thinkers. Witnessing someone I've admired as much as say "I'm so tired of someone continuing to disagree with me in public, I'm taking my toys and going home," makes me even more afraid of what this world and the people in it are about to become than I already have been.
I mean, what the hell?
"Oh good, cookies" |
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Nenya
New Member
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 19:19:57 [Permalink]
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Thank you, rubysue, I needed your OP. Hey, I learned something today: not all skeptics are liberals. Interesting, and something I should have known before but didn't due to stereotyping. Thank you for not being afraid to voice your thoughts--I for one am among those who have thought the same things in the last couple of days and wondered if I was alone.
I have nearly always enjoyed reading your posts, even when I've disagreed with them. I say 'nearly' because of course if I disagree it's not as enjoyable as if I agree, but just the same you're a person whose posts I read just because of your reputation in my mind. I've always found you to be rational and reasoned in your discussions, graceful even, even when you thought you were going overboard.
Please don't leave! Hey, I'll send you a chocolate cake or something. Or gingersnaps? A book on orbital mechanics? (Except you know more about that than I anyway....) New gadgets for your 'scope? C'mon, there's gotta be something.....
Or maybe a better incentive would be sticking around myself and putting in a good argument now and then. The best legacy of all, and one you've definitely inspired.
--Nenya
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All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
--J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 19:33:05 [Permalink]
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Thank you to those who have given me support, whether you have agreed with my opinions or not. I must admit that I shy from conflict (verbal or written), because I was raised to be a "good girl" who doesn't rock the boat. However, when something "trips my trigger", well look out, because I can go ballistic in a big fat hurry! When I decide to speak my mind, I do so with an apology because I don't wish to offend others. However, I also know what I believe and have a firm and convicted direction of my "moral compass"(which has nothing to do with religious belief or lack thereof); this is coupled with the facts that my patience is thin and my bulls**t filter is very narrow (a major character flaw, but so be it).
I'll continue to lurk on this board, because there are so many interesting voices to be heard. However, I know what I believe about this atrocity and our appropriate response to it and will probably avoid further discussions on this particular subject.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 09/23/2001 19:34:11 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 19:52:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
“Dear Mr. Al-Qaeda Terrorist (sir): We're so sorry that we're Americans and that we live in a country that offends you simply because we exist. We admit that we're decadent and bad and that we have ignored your concerns for justice in remote corners of the world. We promise to be good and appease your every demand, so please leave us alone. You are correct to point out the errors of our ways through your actions and we humbly thank you for the lesson. We promise to be good and do what you want, just don't hurt us anymore.”
And thus the abused wife spoke humbly to her enraged husband….
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Rubysue:
Believe it or not, there are innocent people in this world. Nobody wants to appease anybody. Some of us do not want to be seen as equally evil as the ones who perpertrated this evil upon our country.
Going out and bombing anybody and everybody would not solve the problems in this world. It would not bring back the dead. It would kill quite a few innocent people whose only crime lies in having lived in a country where such evil people live.
I am not religious and have never been religious. However, I do not want to see unjustified bloodshed rained down on the innocent civilians.
If there is unjustified bloodshed on innocent people, then we are guilty, too. I do not want to take on that guilt and refuse to take it on. What I think about all of this will never make any difference to the outcome of it all. However, going over there and killing truly innocent civilians (some of them must have been innocent, after all) would put us in the same position which these incredibly evil people have done to us.
Innocence is innocence. Guilty is guilty. If you, Rubysue, (or anybody else) cannot understand the difference between innocence and guilt, then there is nothing which I can say which will have any meaning for you. A person who was not involved in any way in these terrible acts is an innocent person. You want to think otherwise?
I would like to see the revenge go to the guilty. I do not believe that *collateral damage* is the way to go.
Incidentally, I do not have any interest in what you or anybody else thinks about me. I have thought over my ideas very, very carefully, and I always, always, always *consider the source*!
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 20:29:07 [Permalink]
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rubysue, you speak my thoughts for me. Just want to let you know one more person here agrees with what you are saying.
ljbrs:
quote:
If there is unjustified bloodshed on innocent people, then we are guilty, too.
What do you consider "justified"?
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 20:37:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would like to see the revenge go to the guilty. I do not believe that *collateral damage* is the way to go.
I can't resist this (and I'm about to blow a fuse at such nonsense...)
Gee, lbjrs, I have such a great idea!! Why don't YOU personally fly to Kabul right now, go meet with the Taliban leadership (don't forget to put on your Burqua first and try to overlook the fact that they won't give you the time of day because you are a woman) and tell them that you're really, really worried about all of the innocent people in Afghanistan because bin Laden is there and the nasty U.S. government is coming to smoke him out (or so some of us hope). Maybe, just maybe they'll listen to you and run right over and get him and hand him over to you. Why, what a hero you would be! Why didn't anyone else think of this approach (sanctions, diplomatic pressure, lack of recognition for their petty regime, etc., etc.)? Of course, our little buddy has probably long since left the country and is hiding somewhere currently planning his next assault on Americans, like a crop dusting exercise or a new kind of terror using ground transportation.
Grrrrr...Ok, calm down and "consider the source", rubysue. Ok, I'm breathing easier now...
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 02:53:47 [Permalink]
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You think 'W' is a friend to atheists, freethinkers and skeptics, or is he the guy that just called for a Day of Prayer? Isn't his Daddy the guy that said that Atheists are not citizens. Or are we really on two different planets?
quote:
All I can think of to reply to this is that I hope you are enjoying your visit to our planet.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 02:57:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
You think 'W' is a friend to atheists, freethinkers and skeptics, or is he the guy that just called for a Day of Prayer? Isn't his Daddy the guy that said that Atheists are not citizens? Or are we really on two different planets?
Or maybe you didn't like the dictator remark? Didn't Congress just give him blanket permission to do whatever he needed to do domestically or externally to end this problem? Don't we now have people who are saying that we mustn't criticize the President? What country is this?
quote:
All I can think of to reply to this is that I hope you are enjoying your visit to our planet.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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