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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2005 : 06:43:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
ghost tours do not seek scientific research into ghosts...they think of the phenomenon as ghosts who have yet to see the light.... they like Joe Nickell fall into the same categories...Pseudo Science... Pseudo Skeptic...
His interview that Valiant Dancer gave us is the same thing that I was just discussing about... He does not take these things seriously... how many times does he laugh at the phenomenon or calls it ghostly shinanegins... doesn't sound to serious to me...
originally posted by Dave
quote:
You and Joe Nickell are saying the exact same thing, but you don't fault yourself like you fault Nickell. Why is that? Why the double-standard? It is, of course, the same double-standard that Winston Wu so proudly displays. You and he have many similarities.
So are you saying then Dave that Joe Nickell is at fault... So because I say ghost tours are a flim flam not for your serious investigator I am at fault? Joe Nickell is a debunker at best...I looked at his other books on line.. not once does he mention anything about the Society for Psychical research..never hints at even the thought of the works of great mind lke podomore, gurney, myers... he focuses on Spiritualism, hallucinations, waking dreams...and if not that some other noise that is coming from a building 40 feet away...Sheesh!!!! Let me ask you do your knuckles crack so loud they sound like rappings... read the whole story on the Fox sisters.. they were tired of the drama..tired of the publicity...so they confessed into faking it...the rappings could not be reproduced...
1) The building was 40 inches away, not 40 feet.
2) The Fox sisters caused the low rappings in their knees and thighs, not their knuckles. As was evidenced when Harry Price had investigators hold their knees and thighs looking for motion and they could not induce the rapping.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 07:10:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Storm:
Let me ask you do your knuckles crack so loud they sound like rappings... read the whole story on the Fox sisters.. they were tired of the drama..tired of the publicity...so they confessed into faking it...the rappings could not be reproduced...
Why even bring up the Fox sisters? They were the ones who started the whole “ball and chain of spiritualism” thing that you hate, Storm. The Fox sisters did Séances, and all of that. Talking to the dead. Something you call “flim flam”. And as Dancer points out, they failed when tested by a group of scientists long before they outed themselves…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 09:20:05 [Permalink]
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Well I was thinking...
http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/ladyinfernos.jpg
and...Damian and I have this kind of cough we do when we know the kids are feeding us bullshit...Kinda like "cough" and then we say the word bullshit in the cough.. so that is what i have to say to this
Originally posted by Dave..
quote:
You are a hypocrite
While I find Joe Nickells main goal is to debunk rather than exercise true investigation..it does not mean I do not agree with some of his points... I said this about Wu as Well...
originally posted by dave
quote:
Spirit rappers are still around, Storm. And the idea that it's done by simply cracking one's knuckles is also naive. For someone who claims to be educated in these matters, it looks like you've got a lot to learn.
No shit Sherlock..... my point exactley Dave...this is what the Fox sisters claimed...and eveyone else...still till this day...I have been to seances with table rappings... I have experimented with my own seances..no table rapping...no knuckle sounds...have you.. We all have a lot to learn Dave..It is an ongoing neverevding lesson..unless of course you choose to cut yourself off from it..which many skeptics due..they come off the fence...
We had this seance once...one of many... The family and I ...Is there anyone who wishes to speak to us I asked...Silence...Is there anyone who wishes to communicate...Show us a sighn..Silence..but then the fire alarm went off..It bleeped three times... it stopped.. naturally we went over...I took pictures, measured temperature tested the batteries change.. nothing... Damian told me he had put new batteries in a couple of days ago... We went back to our seance...Is there anyoe who would like to communicate with us..gives us a sighn... the fire alarm again went off...by now the kids were scared out of there witts... measured temperature tested the batteries... nothing.. Kids became too spooked and we stopped... the fire alarm did not go off again.. the next day is when I had the slipper incident with the cat... which I discussed before... was it our minds that did it..because we concentrated on a sighn to be given...our energy lumped together to cause the alarm to go off...
Chalk it up to atmosphere...faulty batteries...Sure that's easy...but I have no proof of that... chalk it up to a ghost...well don't have proof of that either...Although I do have the strange incidint that happened the next day...Suggested power of the mind..especially when followed by the question we asked...we asked for a sighn we were looking for it and well we got it...Maybe..but then how powerful is the mind to be able to do that.. would that not transcent the body... thoughtforms... i do not know ..both experiences remain anmolies...
Definatly not edited for Grammar |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 12:03:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
It is an ongoing neverevding lesson..unless of course you choose to cut yourself off from it..which many skeptics due
<cover mouth with hand, make coughing noise> Bullshit.
Just because people think you are whacked in the head and so full of shit that your eyes have corn in them.... doesn't mean that ANY skeptics, let alone many, "cut themselves off" from seeking knowledge.
quote:
We had this seance once...one of many... The family and I ...Is there anyone who wishes to speak to us I asked...Silence...Is there anyone who wishes to communicate...Show us a sighn..Silence..but then the fire alarm went off..It bleeped three times... it stopped.. naturally we went over...I took pictures, measured temperature tested the batteries change.. nothing... Damian told me he had put new batteries in a couple of days ago... We went back to our seance...Is there anyoe who would like to communicate with us..gives us a sighn... the fire alarm again went off...by now the kids were scared out of there witts... measured temperature tested the batteries... nothing.. Kids became too spooked and we stopped... the fire alarm did not go off again.. the next day is when I had the slipper incident with the cat... which I discussed before... was it our minds that did it..because we concentrated on a sighn to be given...our energy lumped together to cause the alarm to go off...
Chalk it up to atmosphere...faulty batteries...Sure that's easy...but I have no proof of that... chalk it up to a ghost...well don't have proof of that either...Although I do have the strange incidint that happened the next day...Suggested power of the mind..especially when followed by the question we asked...we asked for a sighn we were looking for it and well we got it...Maybe..but then how powerful is the mind to be able to do that.. would that not transcent the body... thoughtforms... i do not know ..both experiences remain anmolies...
What is it that you don't get about verifiable and repeatable evidence? Did you do any air quality measurements around the house or smoke detector? Did you have the thing electronically tested to rule-out a faulty wire? What is the age if the smoke detector? Is it one of the ones that is hooked derectly into AC power with batteries for backup? What does your detector detect (just smoke or smoke, CO, etc)? When was it dusted/cleaned off last? Anyone in your house smoke?
Because, I have to tell you, my smoke alarm occasionally fires off that three beep burst, for no apparent reason. It runs on AC power, with battery backup. It detects CO, smoke, and a couple other things. It is really sensitive. I rarely dust it.
When the power browns out or fails/re-starts (as happens often here in the Tampabay area due to our weather) it can make it beep. When the battery backup gets low, it beeps. The manufacturer says it is important to DUST it off now and then. I don't smoke, but I do store my motorcycle in my back room (can't let rain get on my v-rod).
There are many many things that can make your smoke detector go beep beep beep.
The sad fact that you immediately jump to the conclusion that there is a ghost doing it, and are teaching children this nonsense, is really pathetic.
When you can make your detector beep on demand, when you have ruled out environmental causes, in a controlled setting, just by talking to the air... then you may have something worth actually investigating.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 12:29:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Well I was thinking...
http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/ladyinfernos.jpg
and...Damian and I have this kind of cough we do when we know the kids are feeding us bullshit...Kinda like "cough" and then we say the word bullshit in the cough.. so that is what i have to say to this
Originally posted by Dave..
quote:
You are a hypocrite
While I find Joe Nickells main goal is to debunk rather than exercise true investigation..it does not mean I do not agree with some of his points... I said this about Wu as Well...
originally posted by dave
quote:
Spirit rappers are still around, Storm. And the idea that it's done by simply cracking one's knuckles is also naive. For someone who claims to be educated in these matters, it looks like you've got a lot to learn.
No shit Sherlock..... my point exactley Dave...this is what the Fox sisters claimed...and eveyone else...still till this day...I have been to seances with table rappings... I have experimented with my own seances..no table rapping...no knuckle sounds...have you.. We all have a lot to learn Dave..It is an ongoing neverevding lesson..unless of course you choose to cut yourself off from it..which many skeptics due..they come off the fence...
We had this seance once...one of many... The family and I ...Is there anyone who wishes to speak to us I asked...Silence...Is there anyone who wishes to communicate...Show us a sighn..Silence..but then the fire alarm went off..It bleeped three times... it stopped.. naturally we went over...I took pictures, measured temperature tested the batteries change.. nothing... Damian told me he had put new batteries in a couple of days ago... We went back to our seance...Is there anyoe who would like to communicate with us..gives us a sighn... the fire alarm again went off...by now the kids were scared out of there witts... measured temperature tested the batteries... nothing.. Kids became too spooked and we stopped... the fire alarm did not go off again.. the next day is when I had the slipper incident with the cat... which I discussed before... was it our minds that did it..because we concentrated on a sighn to be given...our energy lumped together to cause the alarm to go off...
Chalk it up to atmosphere...faulty batteries...Sure that's easy...but I have no proof of that... chalk it up to a ghost...well don't have proof of that either...Although I do have the strange incidint that happened the next day...Suggested power of the mind..especially when followed by the question we asked...we asked for a sighn we were looking for it and well we got it...Maybe..but then how powerful is the mind to be able to do that.. would that not transcent the body... thoughtforms... i do not know ..both experiences remain anmolies...
Definatly not edited for Grammar
I think it was invisible gremlins toying with during your seance. Hey guess what, my assinine speculation has as much credibility as yours (aka none). How come when i ask for a sign my smoke detector doesn't go off?
Hmmm the slipper incident with the cat?? LOL my imagination is running wild now. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 12:31:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
quote:
The sad fact that you immediately jump to the conclusion that there is a ghost doing it, and are teaching children this nonsense, is really pathetic.
I never said that
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
quote:
Chalk it up to atmosphere...faulty batteries...Sure that's easy...but I have no proof of that... chalk it up to a ghost...well don't have proof of that either...Although I do have the strange incident that happened the next day...Suggested power of the mind..especially when followed by the question we asked...we asked for a sighn we were looking for it and well we got it...Maybe..but then how powerful is the mind to be able to do that.. would that not transcent the body... thoughtforms... i do not know ..both experiences remain anmolies...
I do not know what happened... Like I said it remains anomolous..but I am just not going to jump to conclusion from either side of the fence... You should read an a chapter of Tony Cornells Investigating the Paranormal...The chapter called ...The Smell..or the experiment called "Phillip" conducted by the Toronto Society for Psychical Research... |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 13:22:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
While I find Joe Nickells main goal is to debunk rather than exercise true investigation..
And it's no different from you saying that ghost tours are "flim flam." Your statement is a debunking one, not indicative of any "true investigation." Yet you judge Nickell harshly for doing precisely what you have done. Hypocrite.quote:
No shit Sherlock..... my point exactley Dave...this is what the Fox sisters claimed...
Oh? Can you quote the Fox sisters claiming that they just cracked their knuckles? I don't think you can, as there was a particular technique they used to make the sounds they did.quote:
and eveyone else...
Well, if we're calling "bullshit" on things, I call "bullshit" on your claim that everyone claims the Fox sisters were just cracking their knuckles. James Randi represents a major counter-argument to your "everyone" claim.quote:
We all have a lot to learn Dave..It is an ongoing neverevding lesson..unless of course you choose to cut yourself off from it..which many skeptics due..they come off the fence...
Apparently, you've got little clue as to what my article is really saying. Dogmatically insisting that one should remain open to even the most patently ridiculous ideas is not a skeptical attitude, Storm. It's insanity.
Skeptics weigh the evidence at hand, and come to tentative conclusions. Is it more likely that your smoke detector beeped due to a coincidental malfunction, or to your family's combined "power?" Given that there is absolutely no evidence for this "power" you posit, but that there is evidence that smoke detectors can malfunction for short periods of time, the weight of the evidence goes to malfunction.
If new evidence arises which suggests that tentative conclusion is wrong, skeptics change their mind. But to seriously entertain a possibility just because you can't "prove" it wrong means you must, and I mean you are forced to, also entertain the possibility that your smoke detector beeped at you because aliens from planet Flitnirp, living in your ceiling, were playing a joke on you because they overheard you having a seance.
You must also seriously entertain the possibility that your smoke detector hates you. And that the government is out to drive you crazy by using their smoke-detector control beams. And any other whacked-out thing you can think of.
You can't avoid these claims, Storm. If you're going to entertain possibilities for which there is no evidence, you have to entertain all of them, equally. They're all equally likely, after all.
But if you discard aliens or malicious hardware or the government as being "silly," all it does is demonstrate your prejudice for certain ideas. Because there's no logical reason to dismiss any of these stupid ideas, given your working premises. And it's those premises which are preventing you from understanding skepticism and science.
By the way, good job in failing to acknowledge the mistake you made about Joe Nickell and the SPR. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 13:49:24 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Dave
quote:
By the way, good job in failing to acknowledge the mistake you made about Joe Nickell and the SPR.
Huh? Remind me please... |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 15:40:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Huh? Remind me please...
You've got to be kidding me. All the stuff I wrote on page one about how Joe Nickell, much to the contrary of what you've asserted, assuredly does reference the Society for Psychical Research? In his books. In the very chapter you began this discussion with. You missed all that?
Do you even care about these discussions, Storm?
By the way, what is the make and model of your smoke detector? I'm sure that if it's from a major manufacturer, the owner's manual can be online, and we can all find out what "three beeps" means. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 17:41:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave W:
Skeptics weigh the evidence at hand, and come to tentative conclusions. Is it more likely that your smoke detector beeped due to a coincidental malfunction, or to your family's combined "power?" Given that there is absolutely no evidence for this "power" you posit, but that there is evidence that smoke detectors can malfunction for short periods of time, the weight of the evidence goes to malfunction.
Damn Dave. This is just the kind of logic that Joe Nickell uses. There are some people out there who would conclude by the above paragraph that you are a debunker and a pseudo skeptic. How do you dare to not give equal weight to a power that we don't know exists?
On the other hand, there are those who would call the above a fine example of critical thinking.
“If all ideas have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all.” - Carl Sagan.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 18:08:55 [Permalink]
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| as the kids say, "ownage" |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 18:14:15 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the favorable comparison to Joe Nickell, Kil. Don't I wish I had his mind (in a jar on my desk - Muhahaha!).
Seriously, I don't know how (aside from cognitive dissonance) people like Storm can think of themselves as open-minded people because they take ghosts seriously, but not little green men. Obviously, their minds are closed to the possibility that - for example - their car will float off in the middle of the night, because they don't bother to chain it down in the driveway. Keeping every possibility "open" leads to impossibility of action, due to the incosistencies inherit within such a mindset. But as soon as one closes off even the most-ludicrous from consideration, one becomes "a debunker and a pseudo-skeptic," anathema to the self-described "open minded." But they are forced to do so, or they couldn't get out of bed in the morning. Hypocrites, all of them.
Hell, Storm doesn't even have enough information to state with certainty that the smoke-detector beeps were, as she put it, "anomalous." It could very well be that under certain circumstances, that smoke detector is supposed to put out two sets of three beeps, but Storm doesn't seem to have done the one thing any serious investigator would have done in that situation: pulled out the owner's manual and read it. Instead, she grabbed a thermometer, of all things. What possible use would a thermometer have in determining the cause of a smoke detector beep? Surely she's not under the impression that smoke detectors are routinely set off by heat, is she? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 18:18:29 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Skeptical Inquirer
quote:
Four decades later the foxy sisters confessed how they had produced the noises by trickery
It was only Maggie Fox who denounced Spiritualism...claimed it was a fraud..Katie and Leah Fox never confessed and in 1891 Maggie recanted her confession...
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 18:20:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
It was only Maggie Fox who denounced Spiritualism...claimed it was a fraud..Katie and Leah Fox never confessed and in 1891 Maggie recanted her confession...
Where is your evidence for these claims? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 18:26:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave
quote:
And in that very article, Nickell references Apparitions, by Tyrrell, which was published by the SPR. Is Tyrrell one of the "great minds" or not?
Dave do you even know who GNM Tyrell is or what his views on the phenomenon of ghost were?
Are you talking about the brief four words I think that was mentioned about Tyrell in Haunted Inns? |
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