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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2005 : 18:41:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Dave do you even know who GNM Tyrell is or what his views on the phenomenon of ghost were?
Why don't you just answer my questions? What does it matter what I know, since I'm just providing evidence which refutes your claims? Whether I know anything about Tyrrell is irrelevant to the fact that Nickell does, indeed, reference (or even discuss!) the SPR on a fairly regular basis.
I'll take this as an attempt by you to try to distract from your false claim. A "real investigator" would admit the mistake and move on. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 18:56:13 [Permalink]
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Well Dave what does Nickell know? couple lines he mentions in his book of debunkung...
Originally said my Michael Shermer
quote:
“So, one reason for participating in such questionable debates is not to convert True Believers (since their positions are, by definition, non-negotiable), but to show the Fence Sitters that there is, in fact, a perfectly reasonable natural explanation for the apparently supernatural phenomenon under question.”
Very interesting...He sounds very predetermined about explanations for supernatural phenomenon...Sounds like a true beliver..Sounds like his explanation for supernatural phenomenon is non negotiable On the subject of ghosts I remain to sit on the fence...Not chalking some experiences up to just atmosphere...or immedietly assuming it is a conscious soul of a dead person...i think the awnser lies somewhere in between.. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 19:17:27 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Dave
quote:
Where is your evidence for these claims?
The Spirit Rappers by Herbert Jackson
Ghosts Appearences of the Dead and Cultural Transformation By R.C. Furnace
I Know my history as well.. you mentioned Joe Nickell knows history but I am not quite sure he did it here..Did you know that Maggie was given money to confess?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 19:31:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Dave do you even know who GNM Tyrell is or what his views on the phenomenon of ghost were?
Why don't you just answer my questions? What does it matter what I know, since I'm just providing evidence which refutes your claims? Whether I know anything about Tyrrell is irrelevant to the fact that Nickell does, indeed, reference (or even discuss!) the SPR on a fairly regular basis.
I'll take this as an attempt by you to try to distract from your false claim. A "real investigator" would admit the mistake and move on.
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Well Dave what does Nickell know? couple lines he mentions in his book of debunkung...
Well, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.”
My brother does the same thing. (Major New Ager.) I can show him an error he has made and he will just not own it. He will change the subject (or try to) or he will dismiss it with a wave of the hand as though it doesn't matter. It's as though telling the truth is a relative thing and ultimately of no great importance. (And I suppose that is the case with post modernist thinking.) Making and keeping your point takes precedence over intellectual honesty. Like Storm, he is a moving target.
The words: “I stand corrected” are simply not available to some people I guess…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 19:46:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Well Dave what does Nickell know? couple lines he mentions in his book of debunkung...
Wow. What Kil said. You simply can't bring yourself to say, "you're right, I didn't look very hard for instances of Nickell talking about the SPR."
What does Nickell know? Beats me, I am not he. Why don't you ask him, like a real investigator would? I'll tell you why: you're fixated on this image of him being a "debunker," and you're too busy debunking him to bother investigating.quote:
Originally said my Michael Shermerquote:
“So, one reason for participating in such questionable debates is not to convert True Believers (since their positions are, by definition, non-negotiable), but to show the Fence Sitters that there is, in fact, a perfectly reasonable natural explanation for the apparently supernatural phenomenon under question.”
Very interesting...He sounds very predetermined about explanations for supernatural phenomenon...Sounds like a true beliver..Sounds like his explanation for supernatural phenomenon is non negotiable
To use your phrasing, no shit Sherlock. Or do you think I fail to make that point in the article you like so much, entitled "Fence-Sitting"? What the hell does a Michael Shermer comment have to do with Joe Nickell, anyway?quote:
On the subject of ghosts I remain to sit on the fence...Not chalking some experiences up to just atmosphere...or immedietly assuming it is a conscious soul of a dead person...i think the awnser lies somewhere in between..
Where is the evidence for something "in between?"
And what, Storm, is the make and model of your smoke detector?
At least answer that, please, even if you're going to ignore 95% of the rest of what I type. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 20:27:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not chalking some experiences up to just atmosphere...or immedietly assuming it is a conscious soul of a dead person...i think the awnser lies somewhere in between..
What you "think" is of little relevence when confronted with the absolute lack of evidence that exists to support ANY of your claims about ghosts or human consciousness.
To paraphrase Kil.... you seem to be completely unwilling to recognize reality outside your own little bubble.
I'll join with Dave_W in asking you to tell us the make and model of your smoke detector.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 20:40:00 [Permalink]
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As for the Fox sisters:
quote:
Thirty-eight years later a confession slipped passed the mother of spiritualism. October 21, 1888 was the confession of Margaret Fox. She exposed her fraud as she gave a lecture at the New York's Academy of Music. The rappings that had begun in Hydesville were being preformed by "snapping the joint of her big toe" (Ross 38). Corinthian Hall was so big, that it helped out acoustically, and made the illusion that the rappings were coming from different parts of the building. If Margaret had confessed her fraud a couple of years earlier, spiritualism could have failed in its early stages (Ross 40).
So here is the thing. Margaret Fox demonstrated how the rapping was done in front of an audience. A rather large audience at that. The fact that she recanted her confession later does not really matter. She had already spilled the beans…
Confessions:
Religion In America (History 338)
Georgetown College
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 21:34:48 [Permalink]
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I've lost whatever point Storm was ever trying to make with her "ball and chain of Spiritualism" rant. At first I thought she was trying to say that scientists were too hasty to believe that all ghosts were a hoax due to the numerous instances where hoaxes were uncovered within the Spiritualism movement, effectively killing it. She seemed to be saying the matter of ghostly phenomenon should be divorced from such baggage and deserves a second look.
Now she seems to be arguing that the hoaxes never were hoaxes to begin with, that debunkers only pressured mediums into bogus confessions. Quite the claim indeed.
The problem is she can't muster a coherent train of thought. Haunted inns are tourist traps, yet you're merely a "debunker" if you actually point that out. Discovering the true, natural source of an "anomaly" means that you've ruled out alternative, fantastical solutions, and thus aren't open-minded. Yet the fact that she believes it's probable that unknown and undetectable energy sources underlie human consciousness--the wildest conjecture imaginable--means that she's a fence-sitter. Really, one can only shake their head.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/07/2005 21:47:50 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2005 : 19:19:28 [Permalink]
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| Dave..when I said my fire alarm beeped three times..I mean it went off. If there is smoke it goes off in three loud beeps...not a chirp like a low battery.. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2005 : 19:42:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave..when I said my fire alarm beeped three times..I mean it went off. If there is smoke it goes off in three loud beeps...not a chirp like a low battery..
So why won't you tell us the make/model?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2005 : 20:54:38 [Permalink]
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| Well, Storm told us in chat tonight that she has a "model 1275" smoke detector, but she can't be more specific. The closest thing Dude found was the Kidde Model 1275E. Nothing specific about three alarms, but it does sound like a "nuisance alarm." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2005 : 22:05:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
We had this seance once...one of many... The family and I ...Is there anyone who wishes to speak to us I asked...Silence...Is there anyone who wishes to communicate...Show us a sighn..Silence..but then the fire alarm went off..It bleeped three times... it stopped.. naturally we went over...I took pictures, measured temperature tested the batteries change.. nothing... Damian told me he had put new batteries in a couple of days ago... We went back to our seance...Is there anyoe who would like to communicate with us..gives us a sighn... the fire alarm again went off...by now the kids were scared out of there witts... measured temperature tested the batteries... nothing.. Kids became too spooked and we stopped... the fire alarm did not go off again..
Storm, you weren't burning candles during this "seance" by any chance, were you? You know, the better to set the mood.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2005 : 06:36:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
We had this seance once...one of many... The family and I ...Is there anyone who wishes to speak to us I asked...Silence...Is there anyone who wishes to communicate...Show us a sighn..Silence..but then the fire alarm went off..It bleeped three times... it stopped.. naturally we went over...I took pictures, measured temperature tested the batteries change.. nothing... Damian told me he had put new batteries in a couple of days ago... We went back to our seance...Is there anyoe who would like to communicate with us..gives us a sighn... the fire alarm again went off...by now the kids were scared out of there witts... measured temperature tested the batteries... nothing.. Kids became too spooked and we stopped... the fire alarm did not go off again..
Storm, you weren't burning candles during this "seance" by any chance, were you? You know, the better to set the mood.
Candles usually won't set off smoke alarms. Usually it's the insense which is common to seances that I am familiar with that sets them off. That is unless you light all the candles on my birthday cake.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2005 : 17:00:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Storm, you weren't burning candles during this "seance" by any chance, were you? You know, the better to set the mood.
Why yes we were....but the candle was not in the vicinity of the smoke alarm...
I think my smoke alarm is a generic brand because I have yet to find the manufacturer... but paired up with the slipper incident ..it makes ya go hmmmm... my mind...another conscious being...sure the possibilities are endless..but there are not always known natural explantions for certain phenomena...anomolies...
did anyone look up and read about the "phillip" experiment? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2005 : 18:13:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
my mind...another conscious being...sure the possibilities are endless..but there are not always known natural explantions for certain phenomena...
You forgot "smoke detector malfunction."
No, there aren't always natural explanations, but you're not even looking. You're just sitting around, going "hmmmm..." You're doing the opposite of debunking, you - without serious investigation - are "bunking" your seance and a few beeps. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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