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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2001 : 17:22:08
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Hey, Gorgo!!! Look out!! - I've been thinking about this rant ALL DAY while I worked at my job (gee, I wish I had the luxury of surfing bulletin boards day and night, repeating the same tiresome mantras over and over and over again). The latest news just makes it more imperative for me to vent.
Here's the "voice of reason" from the Al Qaeda for you and your appeasing buddies Chomsky, Clark and Zinn to work with to solve this horrifying "racist" (??)* war being waged by the evil, capitalist American swine who only “got what they deserved on September 11”. After this Goebbels clone laughs his ass off at your cowardly naivete, I'm sure you will all be treated to great "hospitality" by his organization. Just don't EVER confess that you're an "atheist" or he may blow your head off right on the spot or give you a prime seat on a special airplane ride. After you've essentially given away the store to these fanatics, I'm sure your fellow Americans will rest easy knowing that you've solved irrational terrorist hatred through loving negotiation. As for me, tell me when you're finished so I can move to the Yukon.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/strike_alqaedatrans011007.html
*It is a FACT that Ramsey Clark has a new organization called ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism), which has declared that our retaliatory attacks on the brutal Taliban and their protection of a mass murderer terrorist are "racist" acts. Gee, maybe we should attack Norway just for the hell of it as a "multicultural" sop to appease looney-tunes Clark, but I don't seem to recall any of the hijackers being named "Olson" or "Johnson" or hailing from Trondheim. For those who are not familiar with Ramsey Clark, he actually defended Slobodan Milosovic, the Rwandan genocidal torturers and Saddam Hussein as anti-imperialist heroes. Maybe Hussein can send him a Jennifer Lopez Anthrax letter in appreciation!
By the way, I'm waving my flag! How jingoistic and cretinist of me! I must really be a moron. Also by the way, I am a staunch believer in democracy and in the right to any opinion, regardless of how puerile and wretched I may think that opinion to be. I also have the right to express my criticisms of those opinions. Expressing ideas does not make them exempt from criticism OR condemnation (and I can expect plenty of both from you and a few others for this little tirade). Believe it or not (and critical thinkers may know this), not every opinion in the world is equally valid and deserves uncritical air time! How can I say that? How discriminatory of me! You're damn right I'm discriminatory: I don't believe that child rapists deserve a “voice” (“tell us what the “root causes” are for what you did”, as if that can justify evil); I don't believe mass murderers deserve a “voice” (but bin Laden and his cronies are sure getting plenty of air time). Just causes like this war on terrorism (and this is a just cause – IMHO) are not fought based on Harris polls or bulletin board opinions or on the fringe babblings of radical "intellectuals" who would never pick up a gun and defend my rights but expect some poor enlistee to do it for theirs while they simultaneously condemn their actions, spit on “imperialism and capitalism” and sip their $80 Merlot.
  
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 10/09/2001 17:24:57
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2001 : 19:03:53 [Permalink]
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Rubysue,
I've been a fan of your rants ever since you used to deliver them to the HBs on the BA board. Rants doesn't do them credit-- ther are impassioned, but quite rational and always showing a great grasp of the issues.
I know who I want in charge of Homeland Security. 
Many thanks for your intelligence and pragmatism.
(P-)>
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 19:07:39 [Permalink]
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Congratulations. This post is insane enough to stand as its own rebuttal.
quote:
Hey, Gorgo!!! Look out!! - I've been thinking....
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/09/2001 19:11:40 |
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Kaptain K
New Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 19:36:05 [Permalink]
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Rubysue,
You will get no arguement from me. It is my belief that bin Laden and his bunch do not *yet* realise what they have done. In the words of Admiral Yamamoto 60 years ago, they have "awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."
When (not if) they retaliate, they will find that the current response is but the veriest of "love taps".
They claim to have thousands of young men ready to die for the cause. We have millions ready to help them on their way in the cause of freedom. The Taliban think that because they fought of the Soviet Union, they can do the same here and now. The USSR did not have the financial reserves to devote 100% to the effort. So far, the US has devoted but a small portion of its miitary abilities and resources to the effort.
For the first time in my life I am truely afraid for the fate of human civilization. If bin Laden uses biological, chemical or nuclear weapons against US civilians, all bets are off. Most of the paths I see leading from that fork end with WW3.
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 19:39:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Congratulations. This post is insane enough to stand as its own rebuttal.
Why, thank you, Gorgo; what a nice compliment! If you judge me insane, then I probably did a damn good job with these rants. I guess me and the other 250 million lunatics in this country who actually want to stand up and fight for our freedoms and security (and really kind of like the place we live) can all go to the looney bin while you and your sophmoric, leftist academics throw milk bones at the rabid wolves of terror.
Go ahead, give 'em Israel, pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf, stop the sanctions on that great humanitarian Saddam Hussein and let him start up his factories of terror again, pay them trillions in reparations because we allegedly underpaid them for oil for decades, but guess what? IT WON'T BE ENOUGH! There will be more attacks until all moderate Muslim governments are overthrown and then more attacks until we and the rest of the world knuckle under to their rigid Shari'a law. Don't believe it? Read their Fatwa; listen to what they say. It couldn't be any clearer than Mein Kampf.
By the way, in case you hadn't noticed, we are contritely kissing everyone's ass around the world because we accidentally killed four Afghani UN relief workers, but the Taliban have promised that they will sacrifice 2 or 3 million of their people before they give up a confessed mass murderer. Now, who has the superior moral values, Gorgo?
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 19:44:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
For the first time in my life I am truely afraid for the fate of human civilization. If bin Laden uses biological, chemical or nuclear weapons against US civilians, all bets are off. Most of the paths I see leading from that fork end with WW3.
Let's hope we don't see it come to that. But I have to wonder about a World War 3 being started by a terrorist act. Use of weapons like this would obviously lead to a massive US retaliation but who in their right mind wants WW3? Who do you see as the participants in this war? Do you see Assyria declaring war on the US? Even Pakistan? I'm not that worried at the thought of the Pakistan or Assyrian navy working their way towards us. How close do you think they'd get before becoming so much rubble miles underwater?
Yes I think it would be a nightmare but I just don't see everyone wigging out and deciding to end all life.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 19:47:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
By the way, in case you hadn't noticed, we are contritely kissing everyone's ass around the world because we accidentally killed four Afghani UN relief workers, but the Taliban have promised that they will sacrifice 2 or 3 million of their people before they give up a confessed mass murderer. Now, who has the superior moral values, Gorgo?
Hmmmm, the US protected the Shah not to mention Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos. They were mass murderers and we let them party down with their ill gotten gains. Let's hear it for superior values!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 19:51:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
For the first time in my life I am truely afraid for the fate of human civilization. If bin Laden uses biological, chemical or nuclear weapons against US civilians, all bets are off. Most of the paths I see leading from that fork end with WW3.
Kaptain K - I'm VERY scared, to be honest with you, but I'm more scared of appeasement, because I believe that path would lead to as much horror, if not more. If another attack happens (and it will happen, regardless of whether or not we continue to attack the Taliban) and many thousands or even millions of Americans and/or Europeans are killed, then the gloves will indeed come off. The true irony might be that we would likely join with Russia in the all-out attacks.
We are walking a fine line between yawning chasms of horror. We didn't start this fight, but had damn well better make sure that we finish it, and hopefully finish it with some semblance of civilization still intact.
Sleep has been hard to come by since September 11, and tonight will be no different.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 20:11:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hmmmm, the US protected the Shah not to mention Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos. They were mass murderers and we let them party down with their ill gotten gains. Let's hear it for superior values!
Well, they were superior (although not by much) to the alternative, which was losing both countries in crucial geographic locations to communism (go ahead, laugh if you want - the communists still have the all-time human rights disaster records on this planet, from Stalinest Soviet Union to Maoist China to Cambodia, to name a few. It was yet another variation on the "rule the world" totalitarianism that infects the human race).
By the way, I'm sick and tired of defending the United States and its values to a couple of "nattering nabobs of negativism". Criticism of our government is quite useful and one of the gifts we have as free Americans, but if you feel SO STRONGLY about change, then start the revolution. I'm not sure I would really like to live under a government run by the likes of Clark or Zinn or Gorgo, however. I'm of white Northern European descent and I'm sure that most, if not all of my salary (if I had a job) under a regime led by these revisionists would go to reparations for the "past crimes" of my race.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 20:15:32 [Permalink]
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Rubysue I would just go easy on waving the flag of righteousness if it's all covered in the blood of innocents.
We didn't defeat the Soviets so much as they defeated themselves. Now, years later the Philipine people kicked us out and many hate us and Iran well...you probably know how well loved we are there.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 20:21:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
*It is a FACT that Ramsey Clark has a new organization called ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism), which has declared that our retaliatory attacks on the brutal Taliban and their protection of a mass murderer terrorist are "racist" acts.
Ah, Ramsey Clark. He must be about 120 years old by now. He was Attorney-General of the United States from 1967 to 1969, and presumably advised President Johnson on the legality of various shady doings in Vietnam. Later, he veered hard to the left, then drove completely over the rail into political wacko-land. He accompanied Jane Fonda and other high-profile pop-culturists to Hanoi. He was even more strident than she was in his condemnation of American soldiers, but never accepted the slightest degree of personal responsibility for the war. Unlike Fonda, he has stood by the trip. Also unlike her, he understood exactly what he was doing, and that he was giving aid and comfort to a ruthless gang of Stalinist thugs. Clark has since created a profitable business as the highrise corporate lefty world's top conspiracy theorist and America basher, sort of an Ivy League Ted Turner. He alleged, for instance, that the US Army massacred thousands of civilians in Panama in 1989 and has said nary a word about the continued absence of proof. His law firm represented the Ayatollah Khomeini in the United States during the hostage crisis, then switched sides and represented Saddam Hussein. He wrote a book called "American War Crimes in the Gulf". As far as I (or anyone else) can determine, this was derived entirely from Iraqi propaganda handouts. One of Clark's claims, that American engineers knowingly buried alive thousands of Iraqi soldiers who were just waiting to surrender, appears to be original. It is also quoted verbatim in Al Qaeda propaganda. Clark does not even pay lip service to the need for verifiable evidence, he just repeats things like "Everyone knows they did" and "I don't have to reveal my sources." Just to show that he has no political bias, as long as one is violently anti-American, he also volunteered to represent the Branch Davidians who survived their encounter with the FBI, as well as various drug-dealers, neo-nazis, and other scum. These people are entitled to representation (though this is questionable in the case of foreign dictators) but Clark uses all of them as a platform for his violently anti-American and terrorist-abetting propaganda. If "Clark" weren't such a common name, I would have adopted it rather than "chomsky" as the 21st century counterpart to "quisling".
Abducting UFOs and conspiring against conspiracy theorists since 1980.
Edited by - Piltdown on 10/09/2001 20:39:10 |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 20:43:01 [Permalink]
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hey Rubysue......thanks for posting.
Succinct, concise and correct, all at the same time |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 21:09:12 [Permalink]
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Atomic -
I'm tired, I'm scared and I'm worried about my (and our future) as the human race. I don't feel like arguing with you anymore about who's "right" and who has supported what dictator and all that blood on the hands of Americans at the expense of all those suffering crippled blind children in the rest of the world. You have your propaganda, I have mine. I have read yours and thought it wrong, you have read mine and thought it full of lies. All I want right now is to get back to my life, to my little worries about the future of the space program and my joy in looking the latest photos from Hubble, my vacation plans (my hubby and I actually have tickets to the Olympics in February - paint a target on our butts!), my dreams about eventual retirement and more travel around the world (not now), my nights of quiet sleep, my excitement about post-season baseball. I want to read history books and think about those folks who had to survive such demanding times and be glad that I'm living now. I want to be able to get on an airplane and feel fairly confident that I might make it to my destination. I want to be able to surf the news sites on the Internet and find nothing that causes me more depression.
Here's a little (long) story: Last May, we visited New York City on vacation. I had been there a few times before on business (actually went to the top of WTC2 about fifteen years ago), but this was a full eight days in the Big Apple, seeing every site in the books. Our main reason for the trip was to enjoy four nights of opera at the Met (the complete Wagner's Ring Cycle – don't even THINK about making a snide comment about this, but for us this was a lifetime experience). This left plenty of time for other activities. We started the trip with a side jaunt to Cooperstown for a couple of days to see the Baseball Hall of Fame and then hit the “city that never sleeps”. We went to a Yankees game, we went to a concert with the New York Philharmonic (a dry run to Lincoln Center), we did the Circle Line tour (took tons of pictures of two buildings that no longer exist), we rushed to the top of the Empire State Building, we went through the New York Stock Exchange (that bastion of imperialist capitalism), we visited Ellis Island (more pictures of same two tall towers). We went to the Guggenheim, the Frick Collection, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the Museum of Modern Art. We visited the Hadley Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History. We drank wine in Greenwich Village, at the corner of Bleeker and McDougal streets. We had lunch in the Delegate's dining room at the United Nations and at the Oak Room in the Plaza; we had drinks in the Rainbow Room ($16 Manhattans!) and took in the view, and enjoyed drinks in the lobby of the Algonquin Hotel; we gobbled thin-crust pizza at John's Pizzeria. We walked around Times Square several times (right near our hotel) and strolled across Central Park. We bought ½ price tickets to a Broadway show (“Cabaret”) on the first floor of WTC2 and zoomed to the top of WTC1, to the Greatest Bar in the World, to have drinks and admire the view from the 107th floor (very nice shadows that day on the financial district and the Brooklyn Bridge). Above all, we spent eight glorious days finding out that those allegedly “unfriendly” New Yorkers were actual wonderful folks and this was one of the best vacations we have ever had (and we've had some nice ones).
Then, September 11 happened. I haven't looked in my photo album, but I would bet that we have 50-100 pictures from various angles (including from above) of two imposing modernist monuments to the dynamic life that we Americans have made for ourselves, monuments that no longer exist. You and Gorgo claim this life has been made on the backs of others (I don't dispute that there have been very many dark moments in our history); however, I also believe we have done more than our share to raise others up. I am convinced of my belief |
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2001 : 00:44:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Last May, we visited New York City on vacation. I had been there a few times before on business (actually went to the top of WTC2 about fifteen years ago), but this was a full eight days in the Big Apple, seeing every site in the books. Our main reason for the trip was to enjoy four nights of opera at the Met (the complete Wagner's Ring Cycle – don't even THINK about making a snide comment about this, but for us this was a lifetime experience). This left plenty of time for other activities. We started the trip with a side jaunt to Cooperstown for a couple of days to see the Baseball Hall of Fame and then hit the “city that never sleeps”. We went to a Yankees game, we went to a concert with the New York Philharmonic (a dry run to Lincoln Center), we did the Circle Line tour (took tons of pictures of two buildings that no longer exist), we rushed to the top of the Empire State Building, we went through the New York Stock Exchange (that bastion of imperialist capitalism), we visited Ellis Island (more pictures of same two tall towers). We went to the Guggenheim, the Frick Collection, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the Museum of Modern Art. We visited the Hadley Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History. We drank wine in Greenwich Village, at the corner of Bleeker and McDougal streets. We had lunch in the Delegate's dining room at the United Nations and at the Oak Room in the Plaza; we had drinks in the Rainbow Room ($16 Manhattans!) and took in the view, and enjoyed drinks in the lobby of the Algonquin Hotel; we gobbled thin-crust pizza at John's Pizzeria. We walked around Times Square several times (right near our hotel) and strolled across Central Park. We bought ½ price tickets to a Broadway show (“Cabaret”) on the first floor of WTC2 and zoomed to the top of WTC1, to the Greatest Bar in the World, to have drinks and admire the view from the 107th floor (very nice shadows that day on the financial district and the Brooklyn Bridge). Above all, we spent eight glorious days finding out that those allegedly “unfriendly” New Yorkers were actual wonderful folks and this was one of the best vacations we have ever had (and we've had some nice ones).
Holy Cow! I lived in NYC for 16 years, my wife almost that long, and I don't think we covered all that ground.  What a great vacation.
Go Yankees! Go Diamondbacks (yeah, right)! 
(P-)>
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars. |
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Kaptain K
New Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2001 : 01:06:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
For the first time in my life I am truely afraid for the fate of human civilization. If bin Laden uses biological, chemical or nuclear weapons against US civilians, all bets are off. Most of the paths I see leading from that fork end with WW3.
Kaptain K - I'm VERY scared, to be honest with you, but I'm more scared of appeasement, because I believe that path would lead to as much horror, if not more. If another attack happens (and it will happen, regardless of whether or not we continue to attack the Taliban) and many thousands or even millions of Americans and/or Europeans are killed, then the gloves will indeed come off. The true irony might be that we would likely join with Russia in the all-out attacks.
We are walking a fine line between yawning chasms of horror. We didn't start this fight, but had damn well better make sure that we finish it, and hopefully finish it with some semblance of civilization still intact.
Sleep has been hard to come by since September 11, and tonight will be no different.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Again, I agree. I edited my thoughts to get my main point across. I too fear appeasement. I also fear that we will wuss around and not get this finished. The best thing bin Laden could do for his cause would be to hold off on other terrorist strikes until apathy rears its ugly head and the appeasers get the upper hand again. As you sid, we are wlking a very fine line. The chasm is abyssmally deep on either side. The price of error is extremely high either way.
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Kaptain K
New Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2001 : 01:38:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
For the first time in my life I am truely afraid for the fate of human civilization. If bin Laden uses biological, chemical or nuclear weapons against US civilians, all bets are off. Most of the paths I see leading from that fork end with WW3.
quote:
Let's hope we don't see it come to that. But I have to wonder about a World War 3 being started by a terrorist act.
Why not? WW 1 started with the assassination of a minor Austrian nobleman.
quote:
Use of weapons like this would obviously lead to a massive US retaliation but who in their right mind wants WW3?
Nobody WANTS WW 3. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
quote:
Who do you see as the participants in this war? Do you see Assyria declaring war on the US? Even Pakistan? I'm not that worried at the thought of the Pakistan or Assyrian navy working their way towards us. How close do you think they'd get before becoming so much rubble miles underwater?
Yes I think it would be a nightmare but I just don't see everyone wigging out and deciding to end all life.
When nukes fly, logic and rationality will be out the window. Nobody decides to end all life, but consider the nunber of nukes in the world (not just the big thermo-nukes on ICBMs that everybody thinks about when they think of "nukes", but the "little" ones - the tactical battlefield nukes and suitcase or backpack nukes).
[quote]
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Don't for get the 166 backpack nukes from the old Soviet Union that, according to Trish, the NSA says are unaccounted for, and the reports that bin Laden is trying to buy them from the Russian mafia.
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