I guess I have other things to do at the moment. I have no problem with Rubysue. She said it herself, she was beating her head against a wall. Her head and her wall. Angry people blame others for their anger. I'm no different, except that at some point (sometimes late in the game) I understand that I don't need to blame my anger on others. Some people don't see their anger, they see "idiots" and "cranks." They don't understand that it's their beliefs which cause their anger, not someone else.
The same for the woman who would banish all atheists. She thinks others cause her despair, so she tries to banish them to hell so she can be in that special club that's better than everyone else. She thinks that will give her self-worth. However, her self-worth is never safe.
No charge this time for dispensing my wonderful opinion.
quote:
Well, we'll never know unless we make that attempt, now will we
In fact, if Ruby Sue is around, maybe you two can bury your Hatchet, in the Bigots', for want of a better term, Arguments!
quote:Angry people blame others for their anger. I'm no different, except that at some point (sometimes late in the game) I understand that I don't need to blame my anger on others. Some people don't see their anger, they see "idiots" and "cranks." They don't understand that it's their beliefs which cause their anger, not someone else.
However, I would add that occassionally (alot) that sometimes this anger is also from a sense of insecurity in their own beliefs/belief system.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Sure. To need beliefs - more specifically ideas that have no reasonable proof or logic - one is by definition, insecure. When you realize that you don't need to have all the answers (in order to get self-worth), you become more secure.
Skepticism is not about "beliefs" it is about suspending judgement until one has reasonable proof. One can have plenty of opinions about a lot of things without having "beliefs." I don't "believe" in gravity, I understand that if I want to jump off a tall building, I need to reckon with certain reported observable and repeatable effects of what we call "gravity." When I learn something else about gravity, I don't need to cry about losing my "beliefs" about gravity, I can be glad that I learned more.
I know that I'm picking nits when I use the word 'belief' in this way, but it helps me sort out certain ideas. If I find I have a "belief" then I understand that I must be emotionally attached to something. I try to lose my beliefs, when I can.
When one is angry in defense of one's "beliefs" (as we all do at times) it is from a need to be "right" or to have all the answers in order to get or maintain one's ideas of self-worth. When I'm angry, I know I'm wrong. Not that what I'm saying is necessarily wrong, but rather the way that I'm looking at the situation is wrong. Anger is always (again, to me, maybe not anyone else) about self-worth and not the situation itself.
Again, this is just my observation, which I guess is all that I have, really.
quote: How bizarre...
I can almost entirely agree with this...
However, I would add that occassionally (alot) that sometimes this anger is also from a sense of insecurity in their own beliefs/belief system.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
I can't remember which staff member wrote it--but months ago I responded to Tiptup's saying how moral Xians were by pointing out the murder of tens of thousands of Atheists. The SFNer said that Atheists, and such, somehow liked the idea that they were "persecuted" in the past. Gave them a sense of rightous moral indignation. I, myself, find the very notion less than charming. But...since Jesus H Christ himself orders that Atheists be burned alive...since the dictionary (Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary Unabridged) gives as a definition of the word Atheist (capitals mine) evil...why are you surprised that some crank wants us out of her country? Every Sunday she goes to church to hear what monsters we are. She thinks that her Pastor tells her only the truth. Even here at SFN we have had two threads started by ordinary people who firmly believed that Atheists had no morality. One even speculated that an Atheist President of the US would have no quams over being a mass murderer because without god he wouldn't value human life. (I guess he didn't know about President Lincon's lack of faith). These weren't nasty guys writting this--they were only repeating what their religiuos authority figures had told them their entire lives.
So some woman in the bible belt thinks that we should all get out of the country. That's not so bad compared with what the "Prince of Peace" wants done with us. In fact it's a definite improvement. She is much nicer than Jesus.
Why are any of you surprised? Atheists have always been treated poorly--nothing new is happening.
------- The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
quote:I guess I have other things to do at the moment. I have no problem with Rubysue. She said it herself, she was beating her head against a wall. Her head and her wall. Angry people blame others for their anger. I'm no different, except that at some point (sometimes late in the game) I understand that I don't need to blame my anger on others. Some people don't see their anger, they see "idiots" and "cranks." They don't understand that it's their beliefs which cause their anger, not someone else.
The same for the woman who would banish all atheists. She thinks others cause her despair, so she tries to banish them to hell so she can be in that special club that's better than everyone else. She thinks that will give her self-worth. However, her self-worth is never safe.
No charge this time for dispensing my wonderful opinion.
Why, thank you, Gorgo, for pointing out what's "wrong" with me. My eyes have been opened! You are right - why didn't I really know that my opinions and "beliefs" are really false in the face of your intellectual gigantism and that my anger is really at myself and not with your befuddled and misguided radical ideas? I really appreciate that my complex thoughts, emotions and sense of self can be distilled in a few short sentences to such a simple picture of me as a human being with no sense of self-worth and one that also puts me on a par with this ignorant bigot.
Before you remove the mote in my eye, consider the log in yours...
quote:It's time to stomp out atheists in America. The majority of Americans would love to see atheists kicked out of America. If you don't believe in God, then get out of this country. ...
Wow what an incredible piece of claptrap.
Does anyone here know of *anyone* who would "love to see the atheists kicked out of America"?
quote: Does anyone here know of *anyone* who would "love to see the atheists kicked out of America"?
I sure don't.
Sort of. Remember when I told you about that pinhead I used to work with? The one who wrote the "where were the atheists" letter to the editor? His group has some weird beliefs. They know they can't end run the constitution and the bill of rights. So what they propose is that any atheist convicted of a crime should get the max. See, that would get us off the streets because we're so unreliable, threatening, and dangerous. I pointed out that statisically, atheists are a very unrepresented group in our jails. He says it doesn't matter, we're dangerous. I guess it hurts more if you're stabbed by an atheist. Please don't ask me to figure this kid out. I threw up my hands within days of meeting him. Blind faith is very scary and silly when seen up close. BTW, don't call them "silly" to their faces. "Silly" really sends them over the top. So does "fussy". Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
quote: I can't remember which staff member wrote it
Hey, don't read too much into that! Finding pleasure in righteous indignation was what I was talking about, and the feeling of being a part of a supportive group in the face of ignorance. But certainly not when any kind of violence or persecution is involved.
Idiot strangers on websites, yes. Anything beyond that, and more personal, I certainly wouldn't claim that that would be pleasurable.
(My thinking at the time was about how I see the current issue of black people, slavery, and reparations. It certainly seems to me that groups who have a connection to past attrocities do indeed seem to relish that connection, and seem to get pleasure out of being a part of that "repressed" group. But hey, maybe I'm completely off the mark! )
And YES I've been cranky lately! A bunch of fundie whackos flew some planes into some buildings and caused thousands to die. Now some equally fundie whackos are trying to grab some sort of high ground to advance an agenda I personally don't give a rat's ass about. How dare these jumped up sociopaths try to shift the blame just to advance their cause? And now they're going to say they're better than the Taliban? Excuse me, the only difference is PTA meetings and SUVs. I have never told a person what they can or cannot believe/profess to. Why can't these jacklegs return the favour? Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
quote:Sure. To need beliefs - more specifically ideas that have no reasonable proof or logic - one is by definition, insecure. When you realize that you don't need to have all the answers (in order to get self-worth), you become more secure.
I can see that. I'm not sure that having all the answers is just about self-worth. I would also suppose that being right is maintaining a position of power, status in society which may or may not be related to a sense of self-worth. Self-worth is knowing your own mind and understanding both your strengths and weaknesses.
quote:Skepticism is not about "beliefs" it is about suspending judgement until one has reasonable proof. One can have plenty of opinions about a lot of things without having "beliefs." I don't "believe" in gravity, I understand that if I want to jump off a tall building, I need to reckon with certain reported observable and repeatable effects of what we call "gravity." When I learn something else about gravity, I don't need to cry about losing my "beliefs" about gravity, I can be glad that I learned more.
It's also about the willingness to set aside the old and outmoded when better suited information presents itself. Many areas are not so black and white. Sometimes opinions are really all that exist since there is no absolute right or wrong regarding certain subjects. (Or maybe I'm reading something differently than intended and this is really similar to what you were saying.)
quote:I know that I'm picking nits when I use the word 'belief' in this way, but it helps me sort out certain ideas. If I find I have a "belief" then I understand that I must be emotionally attached to something. I try to lose my beliefs, when I can.
Hey, we all sometimes need to sound out our understandings to see if there might be something we missed or are misrepresenting. I often times will hold an opinion (one that I can not support) until someone actually knocks me upside the head. Eventually, when I look at things outside an emotional arena then I am better able to see the flaws in my own opinions. This is not indicitive of a change in my opinions, just that I can recognize them for what they are.
quote:When one is angry in defense of one's "beliefs" (as we all do at times) it is from a need to be "right" or to have all the answers in order to get or maintain one's ideas of self-worth. When I'm angry, I know I'm wrong. Not that what I'm saying is necessarily wrong, but rather the way that I'm looking at the situation is wrong. Anger is always (again, to me, maybe not anyone else) about self-worth and not the situation itself.
No not always about self-worth. More I think about how a person sees themself. Let's see if I can explain the difference as I see it. Self-worth how much a person values themself as a person and is often times blind to fault or sees only the fault. How you see yourself is separate from this - I see this more as the mask presented to society in general. This is more how you would like to see yourself and how you assume others see you. Which can often times be seen as an attack against the person. What happens here is that a person (to fully examine a held belief) must drag out all of their preconceptions about themself into daylight. This has the unfortunate side effect of pointing out each individuals flaws as well as their strengths. It's the self-worth issue that determines whether the person sees the flaws or the strengths.
quote:Again, this is just my observation, which I guess is all that I have, really.
Isn't that all any of us really have? Our observations colored by the biases and knowledge which we've gained.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
quote:Why are any of you surprised? Atheists have always been treated poorly--nothing new is happening.
Surprised? No. Angry? Yes. I guess for some reason I don't get wallowing in ignorance. Nor, I guess, do I understand reveling in hating a specific group of people and being proud of the fact or at least without asking myself why I feel that way about those whom I've never met.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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How bizarre...
