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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/27/2001 : 22:44:43 [Permalink]
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If you want to read it that way, you're welcome. If you want to read what I wrote instead, maybe someday we can have a conversation.
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Why, thank you, Gorgo, for pointing out what's "wrong" with me. My eyes have been opened! You are right - why didn't I really know that my opinions and "beliefs" are really false in the face of your intellectual gigantism and that my anger is really at myself and not with your befuddled and misguided radical ideas? I really appreciate that my complex thoughts, emotions and sense of self can be distilled in a few short sentences to such a simple picture of me as a human being with no sense of self-worth and one that also puts me on a par with this ignorant bigot.
Before you remove the mote in my eye, consider the log in yours...
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 22:59:02 [Permalink]
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I don't think we're all that far off from each other. Except maybe in what I mean by self-worth. To me, self-worth is something you start out with. In fact, it's immaterial unless you think you don't have it. It's not like what I hear psychologists say about self-esteem. Their version of self-esteem is something that you get from doing a good job for instance. What I mean is understanding that we are enough as we are. We put this into what we do, rather than get it from what we do.
Things don't "make" you (us) angry, your (our) perception of yourself (ourselves) make you (us) angry. What is it about that thing which "makes" us angry? What is the difference between preferring one event or thing over another, and being emotionally attached to that outcome? The only difference is that we think we can't handle the situation as we are, so we have to put on a mantle of anger in order to make ourselves bigger than we are or to try to emotionally force reality into something that it isn't. Guy in front of you not driving fast enough? We can either attempt to push him along emotionally and get our blood pressure up and call him an idiot, or we can understand that maybe we'd prefer that he do something else but that we're okay the way we are. Then we can use the tools that we have to deal with the situation, rather than attempt to deny reality by saying what the situation "should" be and trying to force it into something that it isn't.
Just an idea. Works for some, doesn't work for others. Please don't think I'm trying to make you "wrong" if you don't agree. We'll find something to agree on some day. I don't have a need for everyone to agree with me all the time. Usually.
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I can see that. I'm not sure that having all the answers is just about self-worth. I would also suppose that being right is maintaining a position of power, status in society which may or may not be related to a sense of self-worth. Self-worth is knowing your own mind and understanding both your strengths and weaknesses.
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Skepticism is not about "beliefs" it is about suspending judgement until one has reasonable proof. One can have plenty of opinions about a lot of things without having "beliefs." I don't "believe" in gravity, I understand that if I want to jump off a tall building, I need to reckon with certain reported observable and repeatable effects of what we call "gravity." When I learn something else about gravity, I don't need to cry about losing my "beliefs" about gravity, I can be glad that I learned more.
It's also about the willingness to set aside the old and outmoded when better suited information presents itself. Many areas are not so black and white. Sometimes opinions are really all that exist since there is no absolute right or wrong regarding certain subjects. (Or maybe I'm reading something differently than intended and this is really similar to what you were saying.)
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I know that I'm picking nits when I use the word 'belief' in this way, but it helps me sort out certain ideas. If I find I have a "belief" then I understand that I must be emotionally attached to something. I try to lose my beliefs, when I can.
Hey, we all sometimes need to sound out our understandings to see if there might be something we missed or are misrepresenting. I often times will hold an opinion (one that I can not support) until someone actually knocks me upside the head. Eventually, when I look at things outside an emotional arena then I am better able to see the flaws in my own opinions. This is not indicitive of a change in my opinions, just that I can recognize them for what they are.
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When one is angry in defense of one's "beliefs" (as we all do at times) it is from a need to be "right" or to have all the answers in order to get or maintain one's ideas of self-worth. When I'm angry, I know I'm wrong. Not that what I'm saying is necessarily wrong, but rather the way that I'm looking at the situation is wrong. Anger is always (again, to me, maybe not anyone else) about self-worth and not the situation itself.
No not always about self-worth. More I think about how a person sees themself. Let's see if I can explain the difference as I see it. Self-worth how much a person values themself as a person and is often times blind to fault or sees only the fault. How you see yourself is separate from this - I see this more as the mask presented to society in general. This is more how you would like to see yourself and how you assume others see you. Which can often times be seen as an attack against the person. What happens here is that a person (to fully examine a held belief) must drag out all of their preconceptions about themself into daylight. This has the unfortunate side effect of pointing out each individuals flaws as well as their strengths. It's the self-worth issue that determines whether the person sees the flaws or the strengths.
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Again, this is just my observation, which I guess is all that I have, really.
Isn't that all any of us really have? Our observations colored by the biases and knowledge which we've gained.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 23:05:21 [Permalink]
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You know, I'm just finding out that a lot of people think the word "radical" is some kind of insult. A radical is simply someone who thinks that the "root" (I forget the root of the word radical, but it pertains to the word "root") of society must be changed, that it's not good enough to paint over a pile of shit. Not that what we have is a pile of shit, but...well...shit...uh... Anyway, that's what a radical is, or at least that's what self-described radicals have told me that it is.
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...radical ideas....
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/27/2001 23:08:48 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 23:17:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Things don't "make" you (us) angry, your (our) perception of yourself (ourselves) make you (us) angry. What is it about that thing which "makes" us angry? What is the difference between preferring one event or thing over another, and being emotionally attached to that outcome? The only difference is that we think we can't handle the situation as we are, so we have to put on a mantle of anger in order to make ourselves bigger than we are or to try to emotionally force reality into something that it isn't. Guy in front of you not driving fast enough? We can either attempt to push him along emotionally and get our blood pressure up and call him an idiot, or we can understand that maybe we'd prefer that he do something else but that we're okay the way we are. Then we can use the tools that we have to deal with the situation, rather than attempt to deny reality by saying what the situation "should" be and trying to force it into something that it isn't.
Sometimes - you do have to try to force the change. If I don't try something to get my father to change the next time he starts putting my mother down because he doesn't feel good right now, I'm not sure that the rationalization of he's not feeling good about things right now will work. There is a point beyond which we should not have to endure insult and injury. Following a slow car is irrelevent in the larger scheme, but watching someone belittled and demeaned is relevent. The only reason I've said nothing so far is my mother has asked me not to - she is the only reason I am still around right now. I will only take so much before I will explode. I don't know why I expected things to change either - this is not new behavior for him.
I suppose you really don't care or need to hear about my problems - however, it does illustrate a point. There is a time when something must be done, otherwise we allow ourselves to be treated as less than human. I was tired of being walked on at home and allowing that to carry over everywhere else. I had to make that change, both internally and externally. Whether that's view of self-worth your talking about or not I don't know - however, for me self-worth is very muched tied to how you value your opinions, and your sense of who you are as an individual.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 23:17:49 [Permalink]
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I think radical implies extreme whether it's ideology or methods or both. What you said might also be true but in common usage the rest is also implied.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 04:08:47 [Permalink]
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Of course I care about your problems. Our problems are all the same basic problems. However, we weren't talking about inaction. Inaction due to fear is the same thing as overreacting due to fear. The point is to look at the world clearly. The beliefs that cause anger cloud the world. Unless you can put yourself (as much as possible) in your father's place as much as your mother's, then you're not looking at the whole situation.
I'm not saying that you never force some changes. What I said was that we cannot emotionally force changes. Emotions by themselves do not force change. Action makes changes. Some people confuse anger with determination. Anger is always a denial of reality. Determination is a decision to do something.
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Sometimes - you do have to try to force the change. If I don't try something to get my father to change the next time he starts putting my mother down because he doesn't feel good right now, I'm not sure that the rationalization of he's not feeling good about things right now will work. There is a point beyond which we should not have to endure insult and injury. Following a slow car is irrelevent in the larger scheme, but watching someone belittled and demeaned is relevent. The only reason I've said nothing so far is my mother has asked me not to - she is the only reason I am still around right now. I will only take so much before I will explode. I don't know why I expected things to change either - this is not new behavior for him.
I suppose you really don't care or need to hear about my problems - however, it does illustrate a point. There is a time when something must be done, otherwise we allow ourselves to be treated as less than human. I was tired of being walked on at home and allowing that to carry over everywhere else. I had to make that change, both internally and externally. Whether that's view of self-worth your talking about or not I don't know - however, for me self-worth is very muched tied to how you value your opinions, and your sense of who you are as an individual.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 04:15:35 [Permalink]
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None of the dictionary definitions I see mean that radical is necessarily destructive. Radical ideas to me simply mean that they are advocating fundamental changes. That may be how Rubysue meant it, I don't know. I wasn't really talking about her anyway, I was talking about other people I know who think that radical means demonic. They may be the exception.
Common usage may give it negative connotations, but is that because the word is "negative" or is it because people have been taught to fear radical changes?
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I think radical implies extreme whether it's ideology or methods or both. What you said might also be true but in common usage the rest is also implied.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/28/2001 04:17:35 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 04:28:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Of course I care about your problems.
Thanks.
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Our problems are all the same basic problems. However, we weren't talking about inaction. Inaction due to fear is the same thing as overreacting due to fear.
In some sense I can see your point here. But the consequences are more far reaching with overreaction I think than inaction, with the possible exception of inaction due to apathy, (WWII).
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The point is to look at the world clearly. The beliefs that cause anger cloud the world. Unless you can put yourself (as much as possible) in your father's place as much as your mother's, then you're not looking at the whole situation.
I can understand his fear and the loss of things that he wanted to do, that he will be physically incapable of now, and that he is in extreme pain. What I am incapable of understanding is his causing others around him pain by belittling and attacking them verbally. There is no reason for this type of response (I am as guilty of this as any other) but this has been happening constantly since he was released from the hospital. My mother actually exploded at him and this is simply something I have never seen her do. The emotional stress on him must be horrendous, however, everyone else in the family is feeling it too, maybe not to the degree he is, but...
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I'm not saying that you never force some changes. What I said was that we cannot emotionally force changes. Emotions by themselves do not force change. Action makes changes.
OK, I agree with this. (I always despised the catholic guilt tripe anyway.)
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Some people confuse anger with determination. Anger is always a denial of reality. Determination is a decision to do something.
Sometimes anger can be the motivator that does kick us in the ass. Should you act from anger? No. Once the heat cools you are often left with determination.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 06:22:09 [Permalink]
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Well, it sounds like at some point someone else needs to talk to him. Unless it's some mental aberration, which I assume is not the case, then this sounds like a good man who is making an error in judgment.
Like you and me, your parents are doing the best they can with what they know. If he can think rationally, I think I'd tell him what he sounds like, and ask him if he means to sound that way. "Do you want to hurt us and make it harder for all of us, or do you want us to help you deal with the things you have to deal with?" "I understand that you're pissed off at whatever's going on with you, but I (or whomever) didn't do it to you, we're only trying to help." "Are you trying to tell us to go away?"
If he's only attacking your mother and she doesn't want you to say anything, then tell her that she is not helping him by not talking to him. She is saying that he is so fragile that he'll (self-worth) cease to exist if she talks to him like a real human being.
Don't know the situation, so you'd adapt it to fit. If after talking to him you find that he is just going to be irrational, you can know that it is just irrational and not really an attack on anyone outside himself that you (or your mother) has to take personally and then decide if he's someone you want to associate with.
Sorry if you didn't want the advice, but just someone to listen. People (men?) sometimes try to fix things that don't need to be fixed.
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I can understand his fear and the loss of things that he wanted to do, that he will be physically incapable of now, and that he is in extreme pain. What I am incapable of understanding is his causing others around him pain by belittling and attacking them verbally. There is no reason for this type of response (I am as guilty of this as any other) but this has been happening constantly since he was released from the hospital. My mother actually exploded at him and this is simply something I have never seen her do. The emotional stress on him must be horrendous, however, everyone else in the family is feeling it too, maybe not to the degree he is, but...
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 06:37:32 [Permalink]
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Well, it sounds like at some point someone else needs to talk to him. Unless it's some mental aberration, which I assume is not the case, then this sounds like a good man who is making an error in judgment.
Probably a good idea. He was just diagnosed with Stage III cancer. There's nothing that can be done.
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Like you and me, your parents are doing the best they can with what they know. If he can think rationally, I think I'd tell him what he sounds like, and ask him if he means to sound that way. "Do you want to hurt us and make it harder for all of us, or do you want us to help you deal with the things you have to deal with?" "I understand that you're pissed off at whatever's going on with you, but I (or whomever) didn't do it to you, we're only trying to help." "Are you trying to tell us to go away?"
I'm considering asking my brother to do this, he's always listened to my brother where he won't listen to me or my mother.
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If he's only attacking your mother and she doesn't want you to say anything, then tell her that she is not helping him by not talking to him. She is saying that he is so fragile that he'll (self-worth) cease to exist if she talks to him like a real human being.
He's attacking everyone and everything around him. He's striking out at a situation that is out of his control. Unfortunately, he is alienating and hurting those who only want to help. My mother tends to a non-confrontational attitude. She most appreciated the person who said, "Oh shit," when she was diagnosed with MS.
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Don't know the situation, so you'd adapt it to fit. If after talking to him you find that he is just going to be irrational, you can know that it is just irrational and not really an attack on anyone outside himself that you (or your mother) has to take personally and then decide if he's someone you want to associate with.
It's difficult not to take being called a 'fucking idiot' personally. His words to me and just about everyone else since he was released. Or being told he doesn't give a shit about anyone else. It's also difficult when I cut my sleep time to go help my mom and get told I didn't do shit to help at all.
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Sorry if you didn't want the advice, but just someone to listen. People (men?) sometimes try to fix things that don't need to be fixed.
Advice is always welcomed, especially advice without judgement (?).
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 07:06:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Editor, The Chronicle
I don't care if she has never committed a
crime, she is the reason crime is rampant.
Gloria ''Wendy" Ray, Aiken, S.C.
Strange. I've heard (can anyone provide a link to facts/stats?) that we disgusting filthy atheists are actually underrepresented in prison populations. I guess we're to busy getting everyone else to serve our time by proxy.
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 07:53:05 [Permalink]
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Sure is hard to take verbal abuse, and if you can do something about it, it's best to stop it for all involved. I know it's easy to say you don't have to take it personally, and I didn't mean to make it sound easier than it is.
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It's difficult not to take being called a 'fucking idiot' personally. His words to me and just about everyone else since he was released. Or being told he doesn't give a shit about anyone else. It's also difficult when I cut my sleep time to go help my mom and get told I didn't do shit to help at all.
[quote]
Advice is always welcomed, especially advice without judgement (?).
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Well, I know I talk differently than other people do sometimes, and sometimes I'm really thick-headed, but if you ever think I'm attacking you or judging you that's not my intention. Sometimes I think I do try to shake people up a little to get them to see another view, but I don't mean no harm I really don't.
My father-in-law died of cancer. My father had cancer when he died, although he had so much wrong with him I don't know what he died of. For various reasons I didn't have to do much of the caretaking. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to not only have to do that, but take abuse for it. No, there's nothing easy about any of that.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 08:05:16 [Permalink]
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I don't think you'll find that we're over or underrepresented, but the answer I get when I tell people that "criminals" believe in god is important to note. (in quotes because people are usually in prison because they're doing something that richer or whiter people are doing in greater numbers) The response I get from fundies is that those people in prison don't really believe in god, they just say they do. If they believed in god, then they wouldn't act the way that they do. If you find the stat's, I think it's important to advertise, but I'm not sure it would help.
This woman's reaction is one of the many reasons I think atheists have to do more than sit back and say "I don't care what they believe so long as they don't bother me." Believing in gods is an attack against reason, and for that reason I think we have to see it as something that must be stopped. Not by laws, but by education.
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quote:
Editor, The Chronicle
I don't care if she has never committed a
crime, she is the reason crime is rampant.
Gloria ''Wendy" Ray, Aiken, S.C.
Strange. I've heard (can anyone provide a link to facts/stats?) that we disgusting filthy atheists are actually underrepresented in prison populations. I guess we're to busy getting everyone else to serve our time by proxy.
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/28/2001 08:14:33
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/28/2001 08:18:42 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2001 : 11:10:22 [Permalink]
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I want to bring this back a bit and comment on the original post in this thread. Falwell has blamed gays and atheists and others for the downfall of American values. Pat Robertson, the same. The ICR has blamed evolutionists for creating a climate that allows murder, homosexuality, atheism and all other evils in the world, including war. Many blame the Jews. We faithless have been known to blame religious fundamentalism as the root of all evil. The Right blames Liberals and the government. The Left blames the Right and government. So what's new?
I'm not suggesting that all ideas are equally valid. Of course the writer of that letter is wrong about the separation of church and state and the first amendment. God fearing Nazis are protected by the first amendment but atheists are not?
We have all seen this kind of thinking. I think the common thread may be that in a scary world it brings some comfort to know that someone or something is to blame. It helps bring a sense of order (however false) to an otherwise chaotic world. We are the good guys, they are the bad guys. Heads must roll.
I wouldn't get my knickers in a bind over this. For my part, I will continue to support the ACLU, who, by the way, would probably defend this persons right to be as stupid as she wants to be....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 04:16:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
I want to bring this back a bit and comment on the original post in this thread. Falwell has blamed gays and atheists and others for the downfall of American values. Pat Robertson, the same. The ICR has blamed evolutionists for creating a climate that allows murder, homosexuality, atheism and all other evils in the world, including war. Many blame the Jews. We faithless have been known to blame religious fundamentalism as the root of all evil. The Right blames Liberals and the government. The Left blames the Right and government. So what's new?
I'm not suggesting that all ideas are equally valid. Of course the writer of that letter is wrong about the separation of church and state and the first amendment. God fearing Nazis are protected by the first amendment but atheists are not?
We have all seen this kind of thinking. I think the common thread may be that in a scary world it brings some comfort to know that someone or something is to blame. It helps bring a sense of order (however false) to an otherwise chaotic world. We are the good guys, they are the bad guys. Heads must roll.
I wouldn't get my knickers in a bind over this. For my part, I will continue to support the ACLU, who, by the way, would probably defend this persons right to be as stupid as she wants to be....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Kil,
I would also defend her right to be as stupid as she wants. However, I will not abrogate my rights because of her ignorance. Unfortunately not speaking out against this type of ignorance and the twisting of the constitution that is attempted by the likes of Robertson and Falwell will leave some with the belief that we should not be allowed here or that we should have no rights.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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