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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2006 : 02:02:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
... you are talking about concerning trade...
Well, the Brit/IQ quote was a joke (I thought it was kind of funny when I heard it, anyway :) but I'll clarify the "Trade thing," tie it into the very relevant "Minimum wage thing," and conclude with a question which follows from all of this for you.
In China, the average worker makes the US equivalent of about 50 cents per hour- without fringe benefits (as employers offer to varying extents here, like unemployment, Worker's Compensation, health insurance, etc.) This is possible because the cost of living in China is miniscule as compared to that of the US. With a population of about 1.4 billion people, they have a massive manual labor force. Now- at those wages- an item which would take $1 in labor cost to manufacture in the US by a semi-skilled worker, in the Los Angeles area, for instance, could be made abroad for less than a nickel of wages! Even taking into account the logistics involved, with free trade policies as they are, there's absolutely no way manufacturing operations on US soil can compete with that. Likewise for other Asian and Latin American countries similarly benefiting from NAFTA. That is why manufacturing has diminished here, in the UK, and in other Western countries except Canada. This is a result of "free trade" agreements- American jobs are essentially being transferred to China where US wage structures etc. don't apply. This is equivalent to having illegal aliens perform this work on US soil for petty wages, except since it's happening over there, it's all perfectly legal. That's what free trade policy has done. On a national basis, this has done more to hurt the US economy- which indirectly means less tax revenue to spend on other things, too- than if all of Tijuana stormed across the border and stayed permanently as illegals. I think the results of free trade policy might be the most destructive problem facing our country.
Market pressures due to this have kept wages low for a large number of Americans, as at the same time, the cost of living has continued rising (it doubles every 12 years as a rule-of-thumb.) That means (adjusting for this) many Americans, especially those on the lower-half of the income distribution, are getting poorer as a result.
China has an unimaginably huge trade surplus with the US, and a large trade deficit with the rest of the world. In other words, we're buying from them, and they're both hoarding our money and using it to buy from everyone else. As such, they have vastly improved the quality of living of their populous as a result (which is good.) They have also vastly improved the quality of their far-more-modernized military (which eventually might turn out to be not-so-good for us?) Say what you want about the Communists (and China qualifies far better than Hillary)... they've really improved their people's quality of living over the last decade- the problem is... they're doing it with too much of our money.
Since its inception, the United States has always been a relatively expensive place to live. I'd guess it takes a single adult at least $1500/month (gross) just to live modestly in Los Angeles- meaning, with a basic car and apartment as their major expenses. That is more than the current minimum wage, and that wouldn't leave much extra cash (if any) after paying for food, etc. As for having a family, forget it. If such a person has inadequate health care benefits (as is often the case with minimum wage jobs) any medical or dental expense would throw them into debt (in the case of dental work, if they could get treatment at all.) So how is making such people even poorer going to solve California's problems?
All that being said, my question is- Exactly what do you think a lower minimum wage would accomplish, and why? The poor people aren't the problem. There is pork on the budget, and there are bound to be examples of abuse, but I think your assessment is too sweeping. |
Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 01/12/2006 02:09:30 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2006 : 02:46:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
The poor people aren't the problem. There is pork on the budget, and there are bound to be examples of abuse, but I think your assessment is too sweeping.
I don't agree with all the situations you described with free trade but that might explain why I just saw on the news from Thailand people protesting it.
I'm too tired now to write a responce to everything but at least want to say you are right and wrong. I think poor people, actually all people are the problem because they spend beyond their means. When you say pork...... you mean the government spending, right? If so, that's for sure.....damn politicians. I think they are so out of touch and they don't do anything to help.
We should have NO minimum wage. I can give you my personal example and I think it repesents a lot of people. Will have to go into detail later but the bottom line is, with higher wages there are less jobs. The poor get poorer because they don't have any income. That is what happened to my room mate, lost his job, out of work for a long time. He just got a job but is afraid it's not going to be for long. If they have to pay everyone more, they are not going to keep everyone. Tell me how that helps? The people getting more pay are only going to have to pay more taxes to support those who lost their jobs and go on welfarem or pay for other services for those people. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2006 : 16:10:14 [Permalink]
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No where does it say, school lunch programs, medical care, or after school programs are a part of that education.
I got my polio medication at our doctors office.
Perhaps if people aren't prepared to take care of children they shouldn't have them.
THAT'S where we need to put our efforts, educating from an early age how to prepare for life so we wouldn't need all these programs.
So what if it is good for society, it's getting out of control and people are taking advantage. There needs to be a better plan than to keep putting money into something that doesn't appear to be working.
Saying "So what if it is good for society" is like saying "So what if things are better this way?"
If kids are hungry, sick and without treatment, or otherwise abused, it won't matter how well their school teaches; they will not learn. And there will ALWAYS been unfit parents. Just saying kids are solely the responsibility of parents doesn't cut it, largely because those kids will grow up and if they are abused, they are more likely to hurt you and me and everyone else.
What the heck do you mean these programs aren't working? That's one huge blanket statement! Lots of government programs work. (The one I work for - Mural Arts - has much evidence to show it has reduced truancy among poor intercity kids in Philly, for instance.) And lots don't work. Our job is to figure out the difference so we can increase the former and decrease the latter.
One thing we know for sure from history - leaving things entirely up to the free market does not work. That is why we seek alternatives.
Quit talking about the government as if it were some entity entirely separate from the people. This isn't North Korea for Heaven's sake. The problem with government in this country isn't that it is government. It's that not enough smart, regular people are bothering to pay attention and get involved (when they could!), and the people who are involved often don't have everyone's best interests in mind. Government isn't inherently a corrupt thing. Certain people corrupt it. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 01/12/2006 18:04:32 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2006 : 23:23:47 [Permalink]
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RE Thailand, well, people over there might be exploited to hell (and probably are) but that's a foreign land and that's part of the reason businesses are "making a killing" using their labor. Some complain about the free trade issues on humanitarian terms as such, but I'm just talking about the current and projected economic impact on the US. RE the question of employment and wages, I hope your roommate has some luck... but there are things about what you're saying I don't understand... illegal alien workers and low wage workers face entirely different situations and I'm not sure how much one significantly effects the other, political propaganda aside.
I. The US unemployment rate for December was 4.9%... that's considered "very low," even seasonally-adjusted, with California at 5.2% (likewise considered "very low") with payrolls adding 20,400 jobs in December... and...
(1) We have illegal alien workers in the US. By "letter-of-the-law" they are criminals, as are their employers. Minimum wage laws do not apply, nor do requirements that employers contribute to Worker's Compensation or unemployment insurance funds. Their wages are not subject to State, Federal, or possibly Local Taxes (I think Philadelphia, DC, and other Eastern cities have such taxes, but not California cities that I'm aware of.) As criminals, any impact they have on job markets or economies must be addressed as law enforcement problems... at least as the "book's written" now.
(2) We have low wage workers. Considering the cost-of-living and tax scales as of present at they relate to a modest, or minimally comfortable American lifestyle, I'd say an independent single American who works a 40 hour work week, and makes maybe $10/hr or under qualifies... disparities in benefits, local costs-of-living, transportation requirements etc. make it hard to "peg down a number." This figure far exceeds the minimum wage. Illegal alien workers cannot work at jobs available to low wage workers for lack of required documentation.
II. For the kind of situation you describe as your roommate facing, "labor pools" have filled this gap in recent years. If a person is a US citizen with basic identification, they can work through such outlets for (usually) minimum wage. Employers have to pay these business roughly double (as a rule-of-thumb) the taxable amount paid to the laborer (hence, they have sometimes been referred to facetiously as "Pimps".) Yet, these businesses have been enormously successful over the last decade (one can verify this by reading the Wall Street takes on one of the major providers in this industry, Labor Ready... they've had ups-and-downs (as do they all) but overall, they could almost indisputably be considered a "howling success".)
So... the simple addition of "I plus II" raises questions in my mind as to whether the solution to the problem of unemployment at the bottom of the wage-scales is "mugging the (legal) laborer." If that were suggested by the facts, Labor Ready should be out of business... they're not... in fact, looking at the big picture, they've been making a killing and continue to do so. Even if that weren't the case, you seem to be suggesting that we should compensate for the alleged impact of illegal alien workers on low wage worker's job availability by "giving the low wage worker the opportunity to foot the bill for the illegal alien worker's criminality". That doesn't strike me as a very ethical solution, considering that low wage workers these days aren't "getting rich"... they're barely paying their bills as I've described (I'm not going to use a word like surviving because there are states of existence in the US below barely paying their bills to which that |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 02:01:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
Does the problem of low wage worker unemployment as you depict it really exists at all?... according to the Bush Administration, it doesn't. Well, get out the Yellow Pages, look under "Employment Agencies- Temporary Help" or the like and call a few (in fact, "Labor Ready" is probably listed)... chances are they have immediate work available for any warm, metabolizing body, and it pays minimum wage (sometimes more, but probably rarely). It might not be an ideal solution, but that's the available solution as advocated by the political factions we've elected and implemented by market demand.
I'm not saying I like or approve of the scenario I describe, but what I "like" or "approve of" doesn't matter- that's just the way it appears to size-up. It wasn't my call- it was our leaderships- Wall Street and business just reacted accordingly.
Sorry Ronny, it's difficult to follow all that you are saying so I'll just answer a small part now.
My room mate can't just 'get out the yellow pages' (LOL, 1st of all he might blend in.....he is yellow.. Ok, bad joke haha.) But he's not qualified to take a lot of those jobs, he thinks his English is not that good. It is but he does have an accent so he's afraid to talk to people, so he can't or doesn't want to take certain jobs.
I will admit that shouldn't be the case for most 'real' Americans so perhaps you are right otherwise. There are jobs for those who want anything, I but I don't know for sure. I do know when I was looking for jobs at one time, I too was limited by my skills and ability.
I loosely added up what it takes for us to live on and we could trim off a little more. It's insurance that's the largest expense at 2-3 thousand dollars a year. But with this sue happy society and the morons who don't have drivers licenses, why take a chance and reduce that. We could get by on oh, let's say $800 a month, right not it's about $1000 maybe a little less. I'd bet we could have much more to spend if we didn't have to pay so much tax though. I think if I added it up, sales tax, tax on utilities, property tax, and others, look at how much more I could have for myself than to give to others who have kids they can't afford to raise for themselves. Or salaries for politicians to take trips, or 'homeless shelters' for bums. BTW, that last remark is for the mayor of Los Angeles who I think has communist leanings like Ms. Clinton. He wants shelters for people who are too lazy to do what most others do, that is to be responsible for themselves. I might go live in one of those shelters, at least I'd have heat in the winter. I'm paying for it there instead of in my own home!
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 02:26:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
If kids are hungry, sick and without treatment, or otherwise abused, it won't matter how well their school teaches; they will not learn. And there will ALWAYS been unfit parents. Just saying kids are solely the responsibility of parents doesn't cut it, largely because those kids will grow up and if they are abused, they are more likely to hurt you and me and everyone else.
They will go to jail or die.
As far as these kids growing up to be criminals, I don't know how much worse things can get from what is happening now. And that's the product of after school programs and free lunch, etc., isn't it? So how are things getting better. I only see worse. As I said, when I moved here it was a clean pleasant neighborhood, now there is graffiti all the time. I'm afraid of driving down the street. We've had these programs for years, then why have things gone down instead of up? BTW, I'm not the only one complaining, I go to community meetings. You should hear what others say.
The problem should be cut off at the source, that is... people should not have kids who can't afford them. Kids being abused should be taken away from their abusers.
Educate people...... kids really, at a young age to be responsible.
I wonder if free programs encourage people to have kids without thinking that they are responsible for them. Schools, baby sitters or day care should NOT be the 1st place a child spends his beggining years. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 04:07:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
They will go to jail or die...
The idea is to try to keep that from becoming their inevitable fate, if possible.
quote:
... I don't know how much worse things can get from what is happening now...
I do. They can get alot worse. My plane stopped in El Salvador briefly many years ago... I got out and wandered around. There was a dead body on a sidewalk- looked like a prostitute. People were just stepping over it, going about their business. Police with machine guns leerily watching from street corners- everyone was pretty quiet, and nobody was smiling. Bought tacos from an old man street vender, gave him $5 American- he was delighted and thanked me, but he retained his worried expression and didn't smile. Do little or nothing to help the people, and that's the way things can become.
quote:
... And that's the product of after school programs and free lunch, etc., isn't it?...
Not necessarily. If they're not working as well as we might wish, the solution might be to find out why and correct the deficiencies. I do feel that's the case (ineffectiveness) in at least some instances, but in the instances I refer to (I've witnessed) the problems lie with the program's management as opposed to their being something inherently flawed about the entire concept. The organizations whom funds are allocated to- e.g. the people running the shows- mid-managers and above- make a huge difference as to whether programs are beneficial, worthless, or even detrimental to youth. And just because they're run by the "Archdiocese of (wuddever)" or some well-known and "respected" collection doesn't necessarily mean there aren't a bunch of smirking bananas who don't give a damn in charge. Religious charities are businesses, and they require oversight, monitoring, and accountability and as do any other subcontractor. That- more often than not- is the source of ineffectiveness of youth programs when such applies, and of the big problems you read about, too.
quote:
1. ... people should not have kids who can't afford them...
2. ... Kids being abused should be taken away from their abusers...
3. ... Schools, baby sitters or day care should NOT be the 1st place a child spends his beggining years....
I agree on all counts, but the key word here is should.
1. They do anyway. How do we stop them? Not helping the kids won't.
2. That means making social services do their jobs- how should we do that?
3. If the parents are completely dysfunctional, better there than with them. If it's because both parents are working out of necessity, that's a "cost of living" and "wage structure" problem, and the solution, if there is one, will be an economic solution.
quote:
Educate people... kids really, at a young age to be responsible.
The parents aren't doing it- that's why there's an effort to do so with extracurricular activities, afterschool programs, and the like. Really, RE the "shelters for bums" and the rest, it seems to me you're making a lot of assumptions. Those shelters are bad places, and the people in them aren't recreating- they're just surviving. If someone's exploiting such situations, it's certainly not the people in them. I paid a guy who was panhandling to wax my car. I bought him lunch, and asked him why he didn't go to one of the LA homeless shelters... he told me he preferred to sleep in the park because "those places are dangerous." Many of those people aren't in such predicaments by choice.
You have to take a close look at things before drawing sweeping conclusions. You mentioned others complaining, but people do that a lot. Frequently their views are subjective and distorted. Sometimes they're just dead wrong. |
Ron White |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 05:08:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
As far as these kids growing up to be criminals, I don't know how much worse things can get from what is happening now.
Do you have to crouch to not be hit by bullets, while inside your own home?
Does your home have bullet dents on almost all walls?
Have you ever had to leave your car in the middle of the street, in the middle of the traffic and lie down on the asphalt to avoid being shot?
Have you ever had it happen in the middle of the day?
Welcome to daily life in Brazil. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 09:32:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
As far as these kids growing up to be criminals, I don't know how much worse things can get from what is happening now.
Do you have to crouch to not be hit by bullets, while inside your own home?
Does your home have bullet dents on almost all walls?
Have you ever had to leave your car in the middle of the street, in the middle of the traffic and lie down on the asphalt to avoid being shot?
Have you ever had it happen in the middle of the day?
Welcome to daily life in Brazil.
You know what? Snake is personally a very generous person. I even like her when she isn't being misogynistic and bigoted. However, she is also a selfish whining ultra libertarian who sees the abolishment of all social programs (they all take money from her pocket) as the way to fix them.
Trying to reason with her is like spitting into a wind… She actually believes that her opinions trump valid figures. Her views are that of a radical. One who can't be bothered with facts…
Good luck to all who attempt to debate with her.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 10:43:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
As far as these kids growing up to be criminals, I don't know how much worse things can get from what is happening now.
Do you have to crouch to not be hit by bullets, while inside your own home?
Does your home have bullet dents on almost all walls?
Have you ever had to leave your car in the middle of the street, in the middle of the traffic and lie down on the asphalt to avoid being shot?
Have you ever had it happen in the middle of the day?
Welcome to daily life in Brazil.
You know what? Snake is personally a very generous person. I even like her when she isn't being misogynistic and bigoted. However, she is also a selfish whining ultra libertarian who sees the abolishment of all social programs (they all take money from her pocket) as the way to fix them.
Trying to reason with her is like spitting into a wind… She actually believes that her opinions trump valid figures. Her views are that of a radical. One who can't be bothered with facts…
Good luck to all who attempt to debate with her.
Well. That says something.
Now, I must say I never experienced such things - but I did go to sleep every night with the sound of guns firing not far from my home. I did see the commerce right across the street be robbed on gunpoint. I did see people being murdered right in front of my condo. And I do have friends and family who don't even ride through a certain street, anymore, because they're dead sure they'll have their cars and most likely their lives stolen, and who only walk on all fours, inside their homes, once night falls.
Trust me, hon, it CAN get worse. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 15:37:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Now, I must say I never experienced such things - but I did...
Well, geez, I guess since you're still here... sounds bad enough to me.
As you're a Libertarian I think Kil's complimenting ya, Snake. Anyway, I took that "...worse?" bit as being used in a loose sense; just making a point. I never try to change anybody's mind anyway, at least not RE politics because I could be wrong, too. Just tossing out opinions- that's all politics is anyway. |
Ron White |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 16:35:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Now, I must say I never experienced such things - but I did...
Well, geez, I guess since you're still here... sounds bad enough to me.
As you're a Libertarian I think Kil's complimenting ya, Snake. Anyway, I took that "...worse?" bit as being used in a loose sense; just making a point. I never try to change anybody's mind anyway, at least not RE politics because I could be wrong, too. Just tossing out opinions- that's all politics is anyway.
You are wise Ronny. Others like to be so picky. I have lived in worse situations but in different ways. Yes, I do hear gun fire and have called the police about it and yes although no dead bodies are just outside my home people are getting murdered in the vicinity. (but that's LA for you! ) Sure, not often (that I know of) but that's the point, I don't want them to get worse as it seems we are going in that direction.
Mr. David (Kil) thinks he knows me. HUH! He doesn't know everything. But I think of him as a friend anyway.
I am a proud misogynist but I have women friends, some are ok. I don't think I'm a bigot, only a raceist. But that doesn't take away from the existing physical conditions that we are talking about.
I don't understand the 'complimenting' comment about being a Libertarian.
There are too many people here, they decided their 'inevitable fate' let them live, (or die) with it. In the US everyone has a chance, many would rather complain that they are being kept down rather than work to improve.
In another post about THE government, I was taugh WE are the government but try telling that to the officals who 'run' the government. Have you tried contacting any one of your gov. officals, you get a form letter back. Isn't that just fine! Do they really listen to the individuals they are supposed to be representing? Even groups that don't have a lot of influence aren't paid attention to.
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 16:59:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
...I don't understand the 'complimenting' comment about being a Libertarian...
I was joking... implying he was being far-kinder than he normally is to others of similar political inclinations :)
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
...they decided their 'inevitable fate'...
OK, I'll take your word for it, First Citizen Serpentius.
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
...I was taught WE are the government...
We are- it's just a "Representative Democracy", that's all. After all, it was the American People's labors that put those CEOs where they are, wasn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
Do they really listen to the individuals they are supposed to be representing?
Yes, I have it on good authority that BP, Exxon and Mobile are very pleased and have expressed great approval with their representation, and all happily concurred that recent government demands concerning oil industry monopolization and price-strategizing will be met, as well. |
Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 01/13/2006 17:03:21 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 23:35:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
Do they really listen to the individuals they are supposed to be representing?
Yes, I have it on good authority that BP, Exxon and Mobile are very pleased and have expressed great approval with their representation, and all happily concurred that recent government demands concerning oil industry monopolization and price-strategizing will be met, as well.
Ah, come on Ronny, you are smarter than that. So I'll assume you are joking again. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2006 : 00:02:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
You know what? Snake is personally a very generous person. I even like her when she isn't being misogynistic and bigoted. However, she is also a selfish whining ultra libertarian who sees the abolishment of all social programs (they all take money from her pocket) as the way to fix them.
Trying to reason with her is like spitting into a wind… She actually believes that her opinions trump valid figures. Her views are that of a radical. One who can't be bothered with facts…
Good luck to all who attempt to debate with her.
I've eaten, watched my TV shows and my fingers are warmed, for now. So I'll read and type fast before they get too cold to type and try to answer.
Are we being condescending, Kil? You know I think better of you than for you to do that.....to me considering how intelligent I am.
Just because someone has a different POV and won't change over to yours, is that a reason to make those remarks.
Now, this isn't personal:
But talk like that sounds like certain radio commentators who are instigators, rallying the troops. Us against them. Also, there's another group (atheists who should be more understanding and intelligent) on line that I read, where some of them when they hear other ideas than what they think is right would rather act bullish and rude instead of ask questions or discuss.
If one is in a bad mood, that's one thing but to be nasty without offering a suggestion is another.
I'm saying what I see isn't working and my solution is to stop throwing good money after bad. There are other types of power than oil companies and big business. How is that 'whining'?
Look at the democrats. Complaining about everything but whatever it is ??? that they are supposed to be doing hasn't made things better. If anyone is 'whining' it's them.
IMO because they are like little kids and can't get what they want. Control. |
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