|
|
|
Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2006 : 12:09:17 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Marfknox
quote:
Where the heck is storm? I really had hoped she'd come back and talk more on this subject. Oh well, maybe she's just sitting back and laughing about the turn this discussion has taken.
I had to work for the last couple of days and hang with family. Not to mention clean the house.
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Well, to be frank, there isn't a lot of substance to Storm's claims, and that's been the case for quite some time. For example, despite being asked over and over again, Storm has yet to offer a definition of "ghost" which isn't meaning-free. Dealing with such people - those who demand answers but largely refuse to participate in the process of framing the questions so they can be answered - is frustrating as hell, and Storm, aside from the first couple of month she'd been here, largely drops bombs like this thread, makes sure people get confused and/or annoyed, and then vanishes again from the forums for months at a time.
I think that I have defined Ghost in some of the best and thought out ways possible. I don't feel I have demanded answers. I definetly do not have all the answers but i do not carry the ball and chain of Spiritualism. That mediums are nothing but frauds,cold readers or that Ghosts are nothing more than Mass hallucination...misinterpetation...
For being such bomb of a thread the read in pretty good...
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
she just seems to be using language and logic in ways that are fairly repugnant to the average skeptic.
Then don't read them or respond.
|
 |
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 12:27:28 [Permalink]
|
Storm wrote: quote:
quote:she just seems to be using language and logic in ways that are fairly repugnant to the average skeptic.
Then don't read them or respond.
Nonsense, Storm. If you come to a skeptic's Web site and make unevidenced claims of an extraordinary nature, you certainly must know you are actively challenging those skeptics to dispute your claims. Please don't now act as though you expect skeptics, of all people, to selectively ignore only what they see as blathering nonsense. You surely intended to stir things up here, and to a degree, up they are stirred.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 12:47:21 [Permalink]
|
To Dave W.: quote:
Absolutely you can point that out, but I wasn't criticizing a lack of apology or lack of admission of fault.
I wasn't so much asking your permission as trying to say in a nice way that you were beating a dead horse. quote:
Well, to be frank, there isn't a lot of substance to Storm's claims,
I was hoping there might be. But from what I'm hearing, chances are slim. Bummer. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 02/28/2006 12:48:26 |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 12:55:48 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Well, to be frank, there isn't a lot of substance to Storm's claims, and that's been the case for quite some time. For example, despite being asked over and over again, Storm has yet to offer a definition of "ghost" which isn't meaning-free. Dealing with such people - those who demand answers but largely refuse to participate in the process of framing the questions so they can be answered - is frustrating as hell, and Storm, aside from the first couple of month she'd been here, largely drops bombs like this thread, makes sure people get confused and/or annoyed, and then vanishes again from the forums for months at a time.
I think that I have defined Ghost in some of the best and thought out ways possible. I don't feel I have demanded answers. I definetly do not have all the answers but i do not carry the ball and chain of Spiritualism. That mediums are nothing but frauds,cold readers or that Ghosts are nothing more than Mass hallucination...misinterpetation...
Fraid I don't do that either. However, I do request evidence and studies backing up claims when attributes are assigned to phenomenon when there is no basis that I know of. (This is the Gauss meter thing again.) Also, if someone claims that phenomenon happens and they have "investigated" it, I will ask what steps were taken to exclude natural factors.
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 17:19:18 [Permalink]
|
After My Healing Experience I discussed it with fellow employees. One of them told me of how she recalled a somewhat similiar experience.She was having pain in her arm from Arthritis and on this particular night it was hurting something terrible.She took no relievers because they disturbed her stomach. She went to sleep and in her dream she recalls an Indian Medicine man rubbing some type of salve on her aching arm. She remembers the healing sensation it brought her and in the morning her pain was gone. That was weeks ago she said and the arm has not pained her.
I am not saying that a medicine man really healed her.. I am not saying he did not... but it warrants a deeper look into the incident than mere coinicidence...At least to me... The Elipse girl |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 20:03:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
I think that I have defined Ghost in some of the best and thought out ways possible.
No, the best you came up with was "a ghost is an apparition which..." but since "apparition" means "ghost-like figure," your definition needed definition, which you never supplied.quote:
I don't feel I have demanded answers.
I've certainly felt as if you have.quote:
I definetly do not have all the answers but i do not carry the ball and chain of Spiritualism.
I don't think you've really adequately explained what "the ball and chain of Spiritualism" is, either.quote:
That mediums are nothing but frauds,cold readers or that Ghosts are nothing more than Mass hallucination...misinterpetation...
Who said those things? While I've never seen evidence that any medium (or ghost) was genuine, that's not sufficient to claim concretely that they are all fakes.quote:
For being such bomb of a thread the read in pretty good...
Well, considering I didn't mean "bomb" like in "that movie bombed," I wouldn't expect there to be low readership. On the other hand, lots of posts and readers don't mean your ideas are sound.quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.quote:
she just seems to be using language and logic in ways that are fairly repugnant to the average skeptic.
Then don't read them or respond.
I'll second HalfMooner on this. This is a skeptic's site, Storm, so pointing out the abuses of language and wild leaps of logic that you make is part of our reason for being here. In that way, your posts are grist for the mill. Expecting us to ignore them because they're credulous and illogical would be like expecting the users of a Christian web site to ignore an avowed Satanist in their midst. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 20:05:28 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I wasn't so much asking your permission as trying to say in a nice way that you were beating a dead horse.
I knew you weren't asking permission (that was just playing on my part), but I missed the dead horse bit. Sorry.  quote:
I was hoping there might be. But from what I'm hearing, chances are slim. Bummer.
Indeed it is a bummer. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 20:11:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
...but it warrants a deeper look into the incident than mere coinicidence...At least to me...
"Mere coincidence" isn't one of the first things that occured to me, since the placebo effect can be very real. You're very quick, Storm, to jump to conclusions about what skeptics will think of a certain situation. You should try - sometime - to just tell one of your stories, without trying to figure out what the skeptics will say. You're not very good at that part.
(By the way, the problem with the placebo effect is that it's untrustworthy and fickle, which is why we run double-blind tests of drugs to try to ensure that their effects are not purely psychological, but actually pharmaceutical.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2006 : 07:26:25 [Permalink]
|
| Whoa. I had a sudden flashback with the 'ball and chain of Spiritualism'. Scary! |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:02:27 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Also, if someone claims that phenomenon happens and they have "investigated" it, I will ask what steps were taken to exclude natural factors.
Back in 2003 I had been asked to investigate certain "ghostly" phenomenon for a very repatable magazine The Weekly Planet. New Yorks equivelant to the Village Voice. We were to visit the Tampa Theatre An old theatre that plays retro movies..thought to be haunted by a former reel man. We were first though to pick up the manager of the theatre who also had expereienced some phenomenon at her house. I have talked of this investigation before in other posts so you might want to research some of those. But what I had experienced in that house was something of an Anomoly.... I have not ruled out natural factors...for I have expressed before Valiant that to me Ghostly phenomenon...Mediums....are Natural Factors...Just factors we do not have under control....I won't say replicatin is not present in these phenomenon...just not "controlled" replication..
I find that many of you immedietly deny my thoughts and chalk it up to Supernatural... Fantasy Prone... my proposal ...Theories...are not that far fetched...They are not even lacking in intelligence..I find that when I come here and debate I go away with more affirmation of my theories...Not Supernatural..Leave it out..that is another post...
Did not edit for Spelling or Elipses |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:25:57 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Also, if someone claims that phenomenon happens and they have "investigated" it, I will ask what steps were taken to exclude natural factors.
Back in 2003 I had been asked to investigate certain "ghostly" phenomenon for a very repatable magazine The Weekly Planet. New Yorks equivelant to the Village Voice. We were to visit the Tampa Theatre An old theatre that plays retro movies..thought to be haunted by a former reel man. We were first though to pick up the manager of the theatre who also had expereienced some phenomenon at her house. I have talked of this investigation before in other posts so you might want to research some of those. But what I had experienced in that house was something of an Anomoly.... I have not ruled out natural factors...for I have expressed before Valiant that to me Ghostly phenomenon...Mediums....are Natural Factors...Just factors we do not have under control....I won't say replicatin is not present in these phenomenon...just not "controlled" replication..
I find that many of you immedietly deny my thoughts and chalk it up to Supernatural... Fantasy Prone... my proposal ...Theories...are not that far fetched...They are not even lacking in intelligence..I find that when I come here and debate I go away with more affirmation of my theories...Not Supernatural..Leave it out..that is another post...
Did not edit for Spelling or Elipses
Actually, I think we did get into the nuts and bolts of it and we asked how specific phenomenon was attributed to the haunting. Likewise, trance mediums are not scientific in nature so until such evidence presents that the trance medium was actually communicating with the spirit of the dead and not putting on the show for entertainment value to him/herself or doing so for financial gain, I'll have to remain skeptical of them. But most telling was your inability to explain what studies or experimentation was done to prove that high gauss fields were associated with hauntings in a causal relationship. Evidence you present was circular in nature and in some cases were elaborate appeals to anonymous authorities.
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:29:25 [Permalink]
|
Storm concluded: quote:
Did not edit for Spelling or Elipses
Or for coherent, meaningful content. I couldn't even figure out if you just said you'd seen a ghost or not. And I really was interested in that tale.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 12:28:25 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
But most telling was your inability to explain what studies or experimentation was done to prove that high gauss fields were associated with hauntings in a causal relationship.
While I was using a Gauss meter at that time..the phenomenon that occured was more important than studies used to prove the relationship of high gauss readinngs and hauntings...I do believe there have been some studies done through institutions like the Society for Psychical Research..I personally have not reached a conclusion on the relationship if there be any..
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
I couldn't even figure out if you just said you'd seen a ghost or not. And I really was interested in that tale.
This is what happened... I had been invited to this house to investigate some anomolous phenomenon or to round it down..ghostly phenomenon.I brought with me two gauss meters to measure the electrical magnetic field in the air..there are theories that high gauss meters readings and hauntings may have some relationship...
We were to proceed out side to look at where some phenomenon had been reported...I put my tan meter in my attache and brought my black one with me outside...We all proceeded to the garden stayed and talked and investigated for awhile...we then proceeded to go inside...well low and behold the tan meter was sitting on the counter
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 12:46:10 [Permalink]
|
Storm wrote: quote:
We were to proceed out side to look at where some phenomenon had been reported...I put my tan meter in my attache and brought my black one with me outside...We all proceeded to the garden stayed and talked and investigated for awhile...we then proceeded to go inside...well low and behold the tan meter was sitting on the counter
Thank you, I understood that very clearly.
Isn't it possible, even probable, that, perhaps distracted by conversation with your companions, you had picked up the black meter instead of the tan one without looking? That would be a simple, ghost-less explanation. I do dumber little things nearly every day. Recently, I poured a cup of sugar into my pint coffee cup, without thinking.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 13:24:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
But most telling was your inability to explain what studies or experimentation was done to prove that high gauss fields were associated with hauntings in a causal relationship.
While I was using a Gauss meter at that time..the phenomenon that occured was more important than studies used to prove the relationship of high gauss readinngs and hauntings...I do believe there have been some studies done through institutions like the Society for Psychical Research..I personally have not reached a conclusion on the relationship if there be any..
And the number of times that I have looked for and asked for the names of these studies by the SPR or any other parapsychological institute have come up empty. I believe that there is no causal relationship based on the lack of data. Your research depends partially on gauss meter readings. The reliance on gauss readings is more adherence to an urban legend rather than knowing the studies.
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
I couldn't even figure out if you just said you'd seen a ghost or not. And I really was interested in that tale.
This is what happened... I had been invited to this house to investigate some anomolous phenomenon or to round it down..ghostly phenomenon.I brought with me two gauss meters to measure the electrical magnetic field in the air..there are theories that high gauss meters readings and hauntings may have some relationship...
We were to proceed out side to look at where some phenomenon had been reported...I put my tan meter in my attache and brought my black one with me outside...We all proceeded to the garden stayed and talked and investigated for awhile...we then proceeded to go inside...well low and behold the tan meter was sitting on the counter
What kind of ghostly phenomenon? Full blown apparitions or just poltergeist activity, or both? What phenomenon did you experience? Can you fully discount absentminded placing the tan meter there?
Heck, I've opened the garbage can thrown my keys into it and held on to the garbage bag in my hand. I figured it out when I tried to unlock my car with the garbage bag. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
