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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2001 : 12:21:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gotten the nice guy speech myself a time or two.
Don't assume (if that's what you are doing) that this is always a result of physical un-attractedness. I know girls that have such low self-esteem, that if you are nice to them, they will dump you and go back to their abusive and cheating ex-boyfriends. Treat them like dirt, and they're yours forever. This is an emotional thing, not a physical one, and it's damn frustrating.
They literally think you are too good for them, and that they don't deserve you.
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 12/21/2001 12:23:51 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 12:44:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Due to numerous societial pressures, (hollyweird, ads, my mom messing with my head) I'm very conscious of my looks/weight. ...Sorry for the rant folks, but society does demand that women wear a size 8, buy lots of make up, and wear three inch heels. Even if we might prefer jeans, flannel shirt, and sneakers.
Not to be mean, but this doesn't sound like "society's" problem at all. In fact "society", in the form of those who care about you, is trying to get you to stop behaving in this manner (my husband, best friend, and supervisor had to do an intervention).
Why should you care what movie stars or models look like unless you are competeing directly with them? The rest of society just says "gee, they're pretty," and drops the subject. You can't blame your personal problems on the motion picture industry if all you do is watch movies but you haven't worked in them.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 13:24:14 [Permalink]
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This topic has taken an interesting turn from psychic junk emails. 
While I tend to agree with Slater on the above, I do worry about how to deal with teenage girls who, in extreme cases, have to be hospitalized because of what they do to themselves to fit the "ideal", which is displayed on the cover of Cosmo every month (among a zillion other places). How much responsibility (if any at all), does YM, or Miss, or Cosmopolitan, etc. have in these cases?
Not to say that this isn't a problem with men, it just isn't as common and/or publicized. Guys do harmful things to fit the muscular hunk image also.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 17:55:06 [Permalink]
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I would say, that in the end, we are each of us (even teen aged girls) responsible for our own selves.
I know, I know...that's easy enough for me to say, handsome devil that I am. But I'm sure it holds true for ordinary looking people too 
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 22:42:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would say, that in the end, we are each of us (even teen aged girls) responsible for our own selves.
I know, I know...that's easy enough for me to say, handsome devil that I am. But I'm sure it holds true for ordinary looking people too
I'm going to call this approach 'the-buck-stops-here-ism.' I don't agree that it's warranted "in the end" however. I maintain that individuals make no decisions that are uninfluenced. Denial of pure free will, I suppose. I think even decisions that appear entirely self-generated are influenced on some level by prior experiences and opinions of those who we respect. Those influences generally begin at a very young age and are present throughout a lifetime. As much as I would like to take sole credit for my skepticism and, I suppose, critical thinking skills, it's easy for me to see that I am almost entirely a product of my rearing. I don't think this is any different than girls who are reared in the presence of strong messages about certain body types. I have no more chosen to be an atheist than said girl has chosen a warped self-image.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2001 : 00:06:56 [Permalink]
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I have no more chosen to be an atheist than said girl has chosen a warped self-image.
Down in San Jose there is a tourist attraction called the Winchester Mystery House. A hundred years old, it has hundreds of rooms, stairways to no where, doors that open onto brick walls --a true work of madness. Mrs W. was convinced that if she never stopped building she would never die.
She was mistaken.
I'm sure that she would have been a great fan of "This Old House." But I don't think that you could blame Norm Abrams for the Mystery House.
This woman's neurosis was fixated on architecture, but it could just as easily have been on fashion or glamor. It was definitely an inappropiate response--even though I plunked down sixteen bucks for a tour of the joint.
In a way it's like a psychological version of an allergy. Most people will smell a rose and think "how wonderful." But every so often some one will sneeze their heads off. It is not the roses fault, it's a problem that the individual has.
Most people see super models and think "how lovely." But every so often some girl starts throwing up her diner until she dies. It is no more the fashion industries fault than it was the roses.
Then there is Barbie. Some executive woman who was concerned with little girls and their self images came out last year with a more realistically proportioned doll. She cost Mattel millions in sales.
Anyway a quick scan of the female figures gracing downtown San Francisco would lead one to believe that too much dieting is not a subject of any great concern.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2001 : 01:07:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Down in San Jose there is a tourist attraction called the Winchester Mystery House. A hundred years old, it has hundreds of rooms, stairways to no where, doors that open onto brick walls --a true work of madness. Mrs W. was convinced that if she never stopped building she would never die.
She was mistaken.
I'm sure that she would have been a great fan of "This Old House." But I don't think that you could blame Norm Abrams for the Mystery House.
This woman's neurosis was fixated on architecture,
I love that place, the Mystery House. That explains why I also like to watch This Old House on PBS too. Thanks. And as luck would have it, I am now in the prosses of building my own house, I always had in the back of my mind Mrs. Winchester, I do plan to have odd angles and secret openings, wish I could afford what she did.
Don't know if this has anything to do with your premise BUT she was told by a medium or spiritualists (I think it was), that she would live forever if she kept building but it was in repentance for all the people who were killed by her husbands guns not because she nessassaraly liked architecture. It's been a while since I was there but that is the story I remember being told during the tour.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2001 : 02:36:09 [Permalink]
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I was so relaxed when I visited Trish. I wish her attitude would rub off on me permanently. I didn't feel like I had to be fully made-up and dressed to the nines the minute I woke up.
OK, the truth wins out - generally Trish is a bum in jeans, untied shoes, and t-shirts/oversized and comfortable shirts. But occassionally I've dressed up - just not often. I could really care less.
quote:
I'm going to call this approach 'the-buck-stops-here-ism.' I don't agree that it's warranted "in the end" however. I maintain that individuals make no decisions that are uninfluenced. Denial of pure free will, I suppose. I think even decisions that appear entirely self-generated are influenced on some level by prior experiences and opinions of those who we respect. Those influences generally begin at a very young age and are present throughout a lifetime. As much as I would like to take sole credit for my skepticism and, I suppose, critical thinking skills, it's easy for me to see that I am almost entirely a product of my rearing. I don't think this is any different than girls who are reared in the presence of strong messages about certain body types. I have no more chosen to be an atheist than said girl has chosen a warped self-image.
I'm going to agree here with this. Media bombards us daily with certain image types. We should own the big car/4 wheel drive or we don't have fun. We need to look a certain way or we don't have fun. This is the purpose of advertising. Telling people what they need/want and selling it to them. Advertising sells an image, unfortunately, too many people buy into the image. I said previously the first point in advertising is to repeat it often enough and people will believe it.
It's repeated often enough about christ being a real historical person. So much it's accepted as common fact. Whoops! We can't prove it, can we? But it has been repeated enough and sold as truth often enough that the majority really do believe in the historical fact of christ.
So yes, advertising does influence us to some extent. Ultimately though we are responsible for our own decisions whether we thought them through critically or not.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2001 : 14:43:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
[quote]Media bombards us daily with certain image types. We should own the big car/4 wheel drive or we don't have fun. We need to look a certain way or we don't have fun. This is the purpose of advertising. Telling people what they need/want and selling it to them. Advertising sells an image, unfortunately, too many people buy into the image. I said previously the first point in advertising is to repeat it often enough and people will believe it.
It's repeated often enough about christ being a real historical person. So much it's accepted as common fact. Whoops! We can't prove it, can we? But it has been repeated enough and sold as truth often enough that the majority really do believe in the historical fact of christ.
So yes, advertising does influence us to some extent. Ultimately though we are responsible for our own decisions whether we thought them through critically or not.
Obviously advertising works to some degree, or there wouldn't be dot coms shelling out ludicrous numbers of fronted greenbacks for 30 second Superbowl spots. But this isn't really what I had in mind. I tend to think self-image is developed much earlier than whatever age is prime for advertising (pre-teen I suspect). It's tough for me to assign "ultimate responsibility" to an individual that cannot operate outside of an established ethical framework. Perhaps it is more the responsibility of the individual to examine others' differing ethical frameworks and make a critical decision to add or subtract from one's own framework based on what one learns. But this just raises more questions; can a person think critically without having been taught that it is good to do so?
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2001 : 20:25:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
I tend to think self-image is developed much earlier than whatever age is prime for advertising (pre-teen I suspect). It's tough for me to assign "ultimate responsibility" to an individual that cannot operate outside of an established ethical framework. Perhaps it is more the responsibility of the individual to examine others' differing ethical frameworks and make a critical decision to add or subtract from one's own framework based on what one learns. But this just raises more questions; can a person think critically without having been taught that it is good to do so?
Pure facetiousness on my part - but there is a demographic for young children. That's why they put so many toy commercials on during Saturday morning cartoons. But I understand your point - there they're not trying so much to sell the whole image. However, they are still selling an image - toughness for boys and I don't now what to call it for girls. Cases in point. Pretty Pretty Princess - game. Shopping Mall - game. Barbie - the bitch has everything. Yeah, they are a targeted group. These commercials become more sophisticated all the time for younger groups. Really, the demographics start for toys targeted to get the kid to say 'Mommy I want that' about the time they can say that. Yes, it is an image they are selling - you think a 5 year old can read the disclaimer on the CA Barbie commercials saying that Barbie can't really do all that?
I do understand your point about the 'formative years' generally running to between 9 and 12 - if I recall some thing said to this effect somewhere by some so called expert.
As for critical thinking - afraid I had to develop those on my own. I don't know if you remember following the abortion thread. My mother and I had a discussion about abortion and I stated my views. Well, it was the discussion (athiest) group I go to. It was the internet. In her opinion I wasn't capable/allowed to come up with that kind of opinion all on my own. If only she knew that Billions and Billions by Carl Sagan only solidified my position. I've had people look everywhere for excuses for decisions I've made and thinking I've done on my own because it's not main stream. Well, I've had to think lots of stuff through on my own, and have learned to attempt to figure things out on my own. So, yeah, I think critical thinking can be figured out on it's own - just damned hard work. I must admit I did have a couple of good examples - though they never *taught* me anything about it directly.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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