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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2002 : 17:06:32 [Permalink]
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Now I don't claim to be an expert in killiing little children, but I did take a course in hand to hand in the service that included dispatching people bare handed. The point is, it isn't like the movies. People don't die quickly or easily doing this to them. Even after the kid passed out completely there still would have been time to revive her. If this was an accident it was an accident that went on for a very long time with people watching.
How this isn't murder one, I don't know.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2002 : 10:49:33 [Permalink]
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They have over an hour of video with her struggling against them and a good portion of it telling them she can't breathe then gagging. They waited about ten to fifteen minutes before unwrapping her after she quit struggling. It's frightening that these people were so callus in their treatment of this little girl and received the lightest of sentences. Especially the one's who've shown no remorse.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 10:06:29 [Permalink]
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For most people who have haered about this case it is hard to understand how the mother could just have stood by and not done anything when the childs distress was so obvious. For most people it shocking how somebody can become an accomplice in such a crime just because they went into the room thinking that the therapists knew what they were doing.
It is probably more shocking to realize that this mother was not some sort of monster or serious mental problems, but that she was a 'normal' woman.
It is even more shocking to when you realize that most people in a comparable situation would have acted the same way.
The worst part probably is when you start to specualte under wich circumstances oneself would be capable of standing by and doing nothing while somebody else got murdered in front of your eyes.
I don't want to excuse what this woman has done, but I think we can learn a lot more out of this if we see her as somebody that could have been oneself instead of somebody that is so completly diffrent from us that we could never understand what made her do it.
This is a good example of the 'Milgram Experiment'. There is no limit to the depravity and cruelty a human being is capable of as long as it can lay the responsiblity on some figure of authority.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 13:14:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
For most people who have haered about this case it is hard to understand how the mother could just have stood by and not done anything when the childs distress was so obvious. For most people it shocking how somebody can become an accomplice in such a crime just because they went into the room thinking that the therapists knew what they were doing.
It is probably more shocking to realize that this mother was not some sort of monster or serious mental problems, but that she was a 'normal' woman.
It is even more shocking to when you realize that most people in a comparable situation would have acted the same way.
The worst part probably is when you start to specualte under wich circumstances oneself would be capable of standing by and doing nothing while somebody else got murdered in front of your eyes.
I don't want to excuse what this woman has done, but I think we can learn a lot more out of this if we see her as somebody that could have been oneself instead of somebody that is so completly diffrent from us that we could never understand what made her do it.
This is a good example of the 'Milgram Experiment'. There is no limit to the depravity and cruelty a human being is capable of as long as it can lay the responsiblity on some figure of authority.
Lars, there's probably some information that you may be missing here. The mother, adoptive mother, took this child to several qualified therapists that told the mother the child was adjusting to the new situation just fine and that there was NOTHING wrong with her. The adoptive mother insisted there was.
Herein lies the problem. She found someone who told her about these people in Colorado who had absolutely no qualification for the procedure that the adoptive mother was told was bunk. Yet she brought this child out here from her home and subjected her to something that was absolutely unnecessary.
Type in Candace Newmaker in the search engine for the Rocky Mountain News. You'll find all this information. These trials have taken place less than twenty miles from my home. I've followed the story. At first I too thought it was a terrible accident until more information regarding the situation between the mother and child came to light. The adoptive mother wanted something to be wrong with the child. She refused to accept the fact that Candace was a normal well adjusted 10 year old.
Lisa brought up the possibility of Munchausen by Proxy as a cause of this child being subjected to this procedure. I don't think the defense even wanted to go there it was never, AFAIK, brought up in the trials.
This woman is responsible in part for the death of that child. Had she listened to the therapists with qualifications who said Candace was a normal 10yo, this never would have happened. She insisted there was something wrong with the child and so decided to bring her here and subject her to a procedure that has no know effective results. They were yelling at Candace throughout, 'Just go ahead and die!' This is torture not therapy. She should have known that something was wrong.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 14:11:53 [Permalink]
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I did not want to say that she was not responsible for what she did.
It was clearly stupid of her to accept some obvious quack-therapists as an authority on the percieved problem.
What I wanted to say was that her inhuman behaviour, once she was in the room with them for the therapy and had accepted them as authority on the subject, was regretably human.
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 14:42:12 [Permalink]
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Human? Humans are mammals. Root 'mammia' as in milk - we are supposed to take care of our children!
Yes, Lars_H, she stood by, like those people did when Kitty Genovese was murdered. Regrettebly human. Still disgusting and evil.
Just because somthing is common or human does not mean we common humans will do it.
Nor does it excuse one quark-worth of her conduct!
Xev -Ad astra- Bellringer |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 18:02:46 [Permalink]
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This topic started a year ago and has been resurrected but I do have a theory in general about child abuse that I apply even to myself.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PERSON WHO ABUSES A CHILD AND ONE WHO DOESN'T IS THE ONE WHO DOESN'T HAS LEARNED WHEN TO WALK AWAY!
I raised 2 great kids and each one has pushed me to the point of anger yet I never layed a hand on either of them because I learned that when I am angry if I walk away and count to ten and come back I can deal with the behavior that has caused such great anger. If I had reacted to just the child I could have hurt them.
This mother was in a state of mind that was incapable of judging right from wrong. She was exhausted, frightened and under the control of the people who had decided that rebirth was the answer to a misbahaving child. She was a victim as well as the child.
No matter what you think should happen to this woman it should happen in spades to the people who convunced her that if she loved the girl she would let such a heinous thing happen. What I think should happen is years of deep therapy to help her get over the guilt she must now be feeling not punishment.
I may be a Skeptic but I am also, as my hubby puts it, a soft hearted, right wing, Democrat. She deserves pity not anger. Of course that is my opinion of this case only. Show me a person who can intentionally mistreat a child I will do everything I can to see he or she is punished to highest degree of the law. The man who brought his two children into the ER and claimed they accidently stepped into a scalding hot tub of water,(one child died from the burns the other is permanately scarred)is sitting in prison for 15 -20(not enough) thanks to my Expert Testimony and his inability to just walk away and count to ten.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 20:10:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
This mother was in a state of mind that was incapable of judging right from wrong. She was exhausted, frightened and under the control of the people who had decided that rebirth was the answer to a misbahaving child. She was a victim as well as the child.
Exhausted? After psychietrist after psychietrist told her that the Candace was okay?
Exhaused? I don't care how exhausted I am, I hear a child screaming, I hear anything screaming, I help that child.
I do not stand by when a child, let alone my child (and fuck genetics, Candace was her child) is being suffocated.
Sympathy? Treatment? The only treatment these people deserve involves a 9mm Ruger.
(Actually, they should be whipped - with the end of the whip coated in sodium - nasty reaction between Na and blood)
Xev -Ad astra!- Bellringer |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 21:53:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Exhaused? I don't care how exhausted I am, I hear a child screaming, I hear anything screaming, I help that child.
I do not stand by when a child, let alone my child (and fuck genetics, Candace was her child) is being suffocated.
Sympathy? Treatment? The only treatment these people deserve involves a 9mm Ruger.
That attitude is exactly what i meant when I first responded.
Sure afterwards it is easy to say that you would not have stood by and let this happen.
Most of us would probably not have stood by in that paticular case.
But under any circumstances? For most people all it takes to stand by is somebody in a Uniform, a labcoat or the robes of a priest to tell them that it is OK. You would be suprised to hear what cruelty humans are capabale of commiting as long as they have a autohrity figure to telling them that it is all right.
Stanley Milgram did a famous experiment on that sor of thing.
If you want to stop something like that from happening again you have to realize that 'these people' are actually potentially everybody including oneself.
Edited by - Lars_H on 02/06/2002 21:54:44 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2002 : 12:37:10 [Permalink]
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I will re-iterate this. The woman was told repeated times that Candace was a well adjusted 10yo child. The mother continued to take the child from therapist to therapist until she found one to agree with her. This goes well beyond being frustrated with a child. She wanted something to be wrong with the child and needed someone to agree with her.
The problem with the mother began long before Candace was ever brought to Colorado for 'treatment'. Had the mother accepted that Candace was adjusting to the new situation and worked with one of the therapists that told her Candace was a well adjusted happy 10 yo this never would have happened. She didn't do that, she found someone to say, 'Yes there is a problem.' The mother failed the child before the child was ever exposed to the quacks here in CO.
That failure lead to the death of Candace. Whether or not she stood by while Candace screamed for an hour, while the therapists told Candace to go ahead and die for an hour, the mother failed as a mother long before the situation arose. After 20 (I'm uncertain as to the exact number of therapists Candace saw) opinions or more of a well adjusted child, the mother was looking for sympathy regarding her adopted daughter not accepting her as her mother. That's how Candace wound up here and wound up dead.
I have no sympathy for a woman who was incapable of understanding that a child is just fine the way she is. I have no sympathy for a woman that would drag a child from person to person saying, 'There's something wrong with this child.' I have no sympathy for someone who can not find it within themselves to see beyond their own self to the needs of one who is dependent upon them. She was wrong in forcing Candace into harms way. And no amount of sympathy should interfere with the fact that she was responsible for protecting that child, that she put that child where she was as much as that father that put his children in scalding water. The more frightening thing is this was not done in the heat of the moment but done over a period of time. That mother had every opportunity to re-think the actions and beliefs she held that led to Candaces death. That is more chilling than a reaction from anger.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2002 : 14:33:22 [Permalink]
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Eloquent Trish, a more eloquent and reasoned indictment of the bitch than I could ever manage.
quote:
But under any circumstances? For most people all it takes to stand by is somebody in a Uniform, a labcoat or the robes of a priest to tell them that it is OK. You would be suprised to hear what cruelty humans are capabale of commiting as long as they have a autohrity figure to telling them that it is all right.
I am familiar with the experiment you refer to, but that does not excuse her conduct.
I am human, and I have the potential to do somthing like that. But I would have no excuse for standing by while a child was killed, no matter how human or common such behavior is.
Xev -Ad astra!- Bellringer |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2002 : 21:19:51 [Permalink]
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A 9mm Rutger to the head is not a it punishment for anyone. In this case especially but even if I thought this woman was a willing partner in the death of this child HER death only would bring another dead body. It was a STUPID thing that happened and you can't kill all the stupid people in this world as we would decimate the population.
I do wonder what it is that makes us the most angry. That it happened or that it happened to a child. If it had been a mouthy obnoxious 18 year old would we be this angery? We are not discussing the family of the teen-age girl that died in the desert on the Out-Ward Bound trip of dehydration after telling the adults responsible for her numerous times she was sick. Her complaints extended her punishment. Her parents thought they were saving a kid who had smoked pot a couple of times from a life of drug addiction. Now you may be angry about this also and you may feel her parents should be given the 9mm too but that is not the story that has people upset. It is the fact it happened to a 10 year old.
I respect the anger at what happened but we should be angry at the abuse of all people who can not fight back on their own.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 08:22:36 [Permalink]
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I'm becoming a Lars fan.
quote:
Posted by Xev:
Eloquent Trish, a more eloquent and reasoned indictment of the bitch than I could ever manage.
quote:
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But under any circumstances? For most people all it takes to stand by is somebody in a Uniform, a labcoat or the robes of a priest to tell them that it is OK. You would be suprised to hear what cruelty humans are capabale of commiting as long as they have a autohrity figure to telling them that it is all right.
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I am familiar with the experiment you refer to, but that does not excuse her conduct.
I don't think Lars was excusing the conduct; I know I don't. The mother deserves what she gets and more than she's gotten.
I have had difficulty in the past communicating what I think is Lars' point myself. Setting aside culpability and responsibility and considering stressful situations academically, the ease with which people in general cross over lines of accepted behavior is appalling and informative. Even more informative, meine meinung, is the average person's inability to see how they would probably have acted in a similar manner.
A simple example is the typical schoolboy's response to instructions regarding the American Revolution (at least back when I was learning it and we hadn't yet discovered what manner of inhuman beasts Washington et al were):
"I'd have fought the redcoats, too!"
Like hell. Most people didn't and wouldn't have.
Or the issue of slavery:
"I'd never own slaves."
Like hell; growing up in that society and given the resources to do so, most people would.
Or closer to home at the office you'll pick up this tendency to deny our own traits in the corners of gossip:
"I can't believe she let her say that in the meeting. I'd have resigned right then."
Like hell. Nearly all of us would sit there and take it, regardless if it's blatantly wrong.
The little girl's mother was wrong and should be horse-whipped right before her hanging. Lars isn't denying that (okay, maybe he's denying my specific punishment, but he's not denying the sentiment). He's just pointing out how close we all are to the same conduct.
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Non sequitur: I find it interesting how this thread parallels the Day of Terror threads and the earlier discussions regarding sanctions against Iraq.
{Edited for spelling, grammar, and punctuation, if you must know}
My kids still love me.
Edited by - Garrette on 02/21/2002 08:25:51 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 12:25:59 [Permalink]
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My biggest problem is with the sentence that handed to her mother. 400 hours of community service and a suspended sentence. Anytime someone is given enough time to think a situation through and still act inappropriately that person has not 'crossed' a line at that point and we can not have guessed that it would happen.
Dr Shari, I find it absolutely horrific that what you described happened. My question, what sentence did the counsellors who were responsible for the welfare and safety of that child receive? Were the parents there and able to put a stop to the situation? If they were, what sentence did they recieve? My problem is with the fact that child abuse laws are terribly inadequate.
When a parent acts in a negligent fashion and their child dies, they should be charged and sentenced accordingly and not have a judge say, 'Oh well the person has suffered enough.' As though that person bore no responsibility. To me, that's what this sentence says. I don't say kill her, or capital punishment. But incarceration would coupled with counselling would have given her time to think about what she did and her failure in her responsibilities that led to Candaces death. She spent most of her time bonded out while awaiting trial. Call it a desire for vengence if you will, but the sentence did not fit her responsibilities in what happened to Candace. That's where I have the problem.
A mother was sentenced to 2 years in prison because her daughter got caught in the cord for the blinds in their apartment and was strangled. The mother attempted to pull the blinds off the wall and couldn't. Yet she receives 2 years in a different district?
This is why my problem with child abuse laws and their effectiveness. A mother attempts to save her child and gets 2 years and another stands by while her child is tortured and gets a suspended sentence. You can torture your child but you can't be ignorant of a potential hazard? What's the point. Why enact laws if they are so open to interpretation?
My problem is with the laws. I still have no sympathy for Candace's adoptive mother and I still think she failed the child horribly. As to the parents who placed their child in the program for teens, their worst potential crime was ignorance. Candace's mother had ample opportunity and resources (as a registered nurse) to research the therapy, had been told the therapy was nonsense, and had been told that Candace was fine. So, she's allowed to pick and choose those in 'lab coats' to whom she must listen? Doesn't hold water, then she should have listened to those in a position of authority that said Candace was just fine.
Oh and to answer the question about whether it was just because Candace was a 10yo...
No, it's because she was dependent upon another individual to protect her from harm and that individual failed and did not receive (IMO) a sentence that fit her failure. That child of whom you spoke, she too was failed by those who were to protect her from harm. Her parents should have researched the program, the counsellors should have been trained to recognize signs of dehydration and other ailments common to those spending time in the desert environment. There were failures there too, and I find that just as tragic as the failures that led to Candances death. The primary difference, one had a parent there the other didn't. And that's why the parent that was there, should be charges and considered as culpable of the situation as the therapists that performed the procedure on Candace. I didn't like their sentence either, they received 16 out of a possible 48 year sentence, which means they'll be out in 5-6 years. That's wrong too.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 12:43:31 [Permalink]
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I agree, Trish.
My kids still love me. |
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