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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2002 : 13:04:37 [Permalink]
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Damn straight Trish.
Garrette: I do not think he is justifying her conduct either.
Now, would I - could I - be one of the thirty eight who watched Kitty Genovese being murdered? Possibly. I would, however, still deserve to suffer for my actions.
No matter how natural, no matter how common, no matter how human her conduct was, she should pay the price. If I could do such a thing...well, that only motivates me to refine myself morally.
Dr.Shari: I am familiar with the case. What is your point? The people who killed that teen should be punished too.
And, yes, it is rather quick to shoot her.
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal
Edited by - Xev on 02/21/2002 13:05:56 |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 13:27:13 [Permalink]
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I agree Xev. But only because I know how much you like the fact that I look like Giardano B.
quote:
And, yes, it is rather quick to shoot her.
Hah! Reminds me of me dear ol' da who, when arguing the merits of capital punishment with one of my very liberal sisters always said: "You're right. Zappin' 'em with all that electricity is cruel and shameful. That's why I advocate flipping the switch slooooooowly, so they have a chance to get used to it."
My kids still love me. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 14:12:17 [Permalink]
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No Garrette, you agree because of my tremendous personal charm and sexual magnetism.
*Snickers madly*
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 14:21:37 [Permalink]
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No, Xev, I do something because of your tremendous personal charm and sexual magnetism, but it ain't agree with you.
Oh, yeah, your snickers don't hurt.
My kids still love me. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 14:55:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm becoming a Lars fan.
Wow my first fan! 
quote:
I don't think Lars was excusing the conduct; I know I don't. The mother deserves what she gets and more than she's gotten.
I was not trying to excuse her conduct. I do think she should have gotten a far heavier sentence then she did. I am opposed to capital or cruel and unusual punishment, but I think there is a lot of room left in her sentence for improvement. In this situation I could be convinced that horsewhipping is acceptable If it were applied consequently in similar cases.
You have understood exactly what I was trying to say even if I went about it a bit clumsily.
I came to my views in a similar way.
Sitting in a classroom full of children who were convinced that if they had been born half a century earlier they would not have been Nazis. Everybody was sure that they would not have stood by passively everybody agreed that they would have rather been part of resistance groups like the "White Rose".
At this point I began to realize that something was wrong. We were not all that different then our grandparents were we? People are People everywhere and everywhen aren't they.
Soon I became very grateful, that I was born to late find out what I would have done.
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I think there are a number of reasons why we apply different standards to such cases as.
We care more about the child that dies in our hometown then about the hundreds that die halfway around the world even thou we never met either of them and neither of the cases has a possible influence on people we know.
We care more about the innocent child then the old man who was just as defensless in his old age.
We care more about the pedophile killer then the drunk driver who went to fast near a school.
We have a buildin drive to care and protect small children. That does not has anything to do with rationals such as helplesness and innocence but goes much deeper as logic.
The idea of anybody acting against those instincts is horrible and shocking to us.
We try to set ourself apart in thought and deed as much as possible from those who we perceive as acting against those instincts. They are inhuman monsters to us. The smaller the gap actually is the bigger we see it to be.
But since our protective instincts were never logical to begin with and they do not cause reactions in logical ways, the loathing they result in is not logical distributed either.
If we lived in a world with a fair and just justice system, where people would be punished in a reasonable way compared to each other and their crimes, we would very likely perceive it as inhumane.
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 15:51:16 [Permalink]
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Garrette: If you believe in my tremendous personal charm and sexual magnetism, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying....
Lars: I agree completly. Cases like the ones you mentioned are all the more reason to take a good look at ourselves and try to improve.
We are all in rather violant agreement here!
(Except for Garrette and I - how dare you haggle over prices? It's the Brooklyn Bridge!)
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:03:38 [Permalink]
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Ok Lars, I've gone back and reread your initial post. I see what your saying. I think we sideswiped each other on where we were coming from.
I don't agree with the effectiveness of the child abuse laws. And you were addressing the issue of how the mother could have let it happen. Regardless of how she could have, the point is that she did and is culpable and should have received more of a sentence than she did. Most of my rant was against someone saying I should feel sorry for her. I don't and I shouldn't have to. I am, admittedly, angry that she received such a light non-sentence. My issue is primarily with the laws, no matter what the case.
Pure anecdote:
Though this is not even on par with what happened with Candace I only hope that I could carry my willingness to defend my daughter to the lengths necessary. My daughter was punished by her school for hitting a boy. I flat out refused to cooperate with the school in her punishment because IMO her actions didn't merit the same punishment as those given to the boy involved in the situation.
In essense, he backed her into to corner and started kissing her. She hit him. I've always told my daughter she has the absolute right to defend herself. Perhaps it could have been handled differently, but I won't second guess something when I'm not there to witness it. I don't see punishing a child for defending themself. I explained this to the school, because they wanted me to bring her to counselling for controlling her anger. I let them know she didn't require counselling for defending herself.
You know, I think (now) that I'd haul off and hit someone who tried that too. (Under certain circumstances anyway.)
Anyway, I hope that I'm willing to carry that far enough to ensure her survival and reasonable enough not to deliberately place her in harms way, at least not if there is something I can do to ensure otherwise.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:11:11 [Permalink]
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*Grins*
quote:
In essense, he backed her into to corner and started kissing her. She hit him. I've always told my daughter she has the absolute right to defend herself. Perhaps it could have been handled differently, but I won't second guess something when I'm not there to witness it. I don't see punishing a child for defending themself. I explained this to the school, because they wanted me to bring her to counselling for controlling her anger. I let them know she didn't require counselling for defending herself.
Damn! Can I join the 'Trish Fan Club'?
Although, I am quite pissed that that sort of thing is still happening. As a little girl, I got into all sorts of fist fights with other kids, mostly boys, and my school reacted the same way.
(Edit to add) Yes, for much the same reasons. Sheesh, I was not a violent child, I simply did not put up with shit.
Good for you to support your daughter.
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal
*Sigh*
And I still cannot spell.
Edited by - Xev on 02/21/2002 16:15:42 |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:12:48 [Permalink]
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Good grief Trish! WTF did the school want her to do in that situation? Stand there and take it like a good submissive little girl? I hope she socked him a good one. Here's how I'd punish her:
"Young lady, you're getting all the treats you want for a week! No back talk. Get your coat. I'm taking you shopping to the mall right now."
That'll show her.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:18:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Good grief Trish! WTF did the school want her to do in that situation? Stand there and take it like a good submissive little girl? I hope she socked him a good one. Here's how I'd punish her:
"Young lady, you're getting all the treats you want for a week! No back talk. Get your coat. I'm taking you shopping to the mall right now."
That'll show her.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
The school wanted her to tell a teacher or yell or something, I guess. She slugged him and walked away, thinking that would be the end of it. Situation handled. He went and told that she hit him.
When asked she explained. Both were placed in detention for a week. I explained that there wasn't anything I could do about the detention but that I didn't agree with them and that if in a similar situation I would again expect her to defend herself again and not worry too much about the consequences, but that she would have to deal with them. We also talked about the difference between starting a fight and defending herself. She understands that at least.
[added] She does have to be more careful now of the force used and consequences now. She's taking Tae Kwon Do and loving it, but she seems to have more confidence in her bearing, so I don't think she'll have too much trouble with having to defend herself.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan
Edited by - Trish on 02/21/2002 16:21:45 |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:22:23 [Permalink]
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You mean the guy got the same punishment she did? This decision makes no sense. I hope she left bruises.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:26:04 [Permalink]
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Yeah, same punishment. That's what I didn't agree with. I wouldn't have had a problem with maybe a day of detention for her. Let her know that sometimes there are other options. But to punish the same for defending yourself, there's something trully warped in that.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:30:54 [Permalink]
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I feel bad for Caity. I think the school is sending the wrong message. Could she have handled it differently? Maybe, I don't know, I wasn't there, and I don't know your daughter. However, I know you, and I think you're an excellent Mom. I doubt you'd teach your daughter to strike out unless she felt threatened.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2002 : 04:31:46 [Permalink]
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Good for you, Trish. I agree completely with your reasoning and your actions. I was fortunate to have parents with similar leanings when I was a tad. They expected me to take my swats when I earned them (which I did), but when I and a friend got jumped and only defended ourselves, mom stormed into school and was ready to use the paddle on the principal before she let him use it on me.
quote:
(Except for Garrette and I - how dare you haggle over prices? It's the Brooklyn Bridge!)
I'm not haggling; I'm bartering. And what I've offered is worth two bridges, dearie.
quote:
We try to set ourself apart in thought and deed as much as possible from those who we perceive as acting against those instincts. They are inhuman monsters to us. The smaller the gap actually is the bigger we see it to be.
I think, Lars, that this is a profound insight.
My kids still love me. |
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