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quotewoman
New Member
4 Posts |
 Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:05:09 [Permalink]
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Here's a quote from a world leader who totally agrees with Christianskeptic
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instrucyion without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith...We need believing people."
—Adolf Hitler
April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi–Vatican
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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:07:08 [Permalink]
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Tokyodreamer:.. Could you explain what you believe is consistent with atheism?
ChristianSkeptic (CS): In terms of personal and/or national conduct anything is consistent with atheism. An atheist is limited only by relative power. Power I define as the ability to determine outcomes.
Tokyodreamer:.. …your definition of atheism.
CS: Atheism is the believe that God does not exist. An atheist is someone who has ruled out the possibility that God exists.
Tokyodreamer: You may not say it, but your posts imply that atheists are immoral,
CS: It is not my intent to imply that atheists are immoral. I do not, and the thought experiment does not state that one has to believe in God in order to be moral or that one cannot develop a moral system without believing in God. I would object to anyone who makes the gross generalization that atheists are immoral.
Tokyodreamer: …as the number of variables to a "happy" society, as you call it, is far from just economic.
CS: This is a strawman argument. The thought experiment does not deal with what constitutes a “happy society” as a whole, but deals with the efficacy of public/government policy and the guiding principles for decision making thereof.
Given the unrefuted first assumption that all government/public policy is economic policy, the experiment takes for granted the fact that government cannot legislate those other “variables” like dignity, morality, love etc. that contribute to national happiness.
Tokyodreamer: One could reasonably dissuade a president who proposes what you describe by mentioning that other countries may not think too highly (as has been demonstrated in the past) of mass murder of it's innocent citizens.
CS: The atheist president could reply in many ways: 1). Since this is a matter of economic calculation, the atheist president's plan could be constructed such that the decision to eliminate unproductive factor inputs would be similar to how the federal open market committee sets the federal funds and the discount interest rates.
That is such policy decisions are made in the nation's best interest based on economic calculations independent and beyond political and legal influence or consideration.
2). The unproductive factor inputs are not innocent. They are utility sucking parasites living at the expense of others. They are thieves.
3). World opinion is not a good reason to change ones mind. It's the logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum or force if the other nations resort to sanctions.
4). The atheist president could respond by noting the hypocrisy of other countries (“as has been demonstrated in the past”).
5). We do not have to assume that world opinion would be against such a policy. Since the world accepts national income as the measure of a nation (see The Economics of Development by, Gillis, Perkins et. Al. 1992 p.9) and if the atheist president's plan works (or at least makes good sense) then other nations may choose to follow U.S. leadership.
Tokyodreamer: ..But I think your hidden argument is really just that you think that morals can't be reasoned, they just "are", and since atheists rely upon (in your mind I'm sure 'worship') reason, therefore we can't be moral.
CS: My position is that atheist moral systems are not based on sound reasoning.
Tokyodreamer: Atheists say that there aren't any universal morals,
CS: If trans-cultural, universal and unchanging morals do not exists then morality is simply what you make it. Morality stops at the culture's edge.
Tokyodreamer: .. and that we base our morals on practicality
CS: Practicality, I submit, is not a reasonable basis for morals since what works for someone or nation may be at the expense of someone else.
Tokyodreamer: .. I not only don't kill people because I would not be well liked by others,
CS: Unfortunately, it depends who you kill. If your actions, like Stalinism serve the interest of others, then you will be w |
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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:10:47 [Permalink]
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tokyodreamer:"...do we not have a multi-millennial history of thinkers and philosophers who attempted in-depth discussions of human morality? Is Kant's moral imperative necessarily given by God? And what about Plato, Aristotle, or Bertrand Russell? In fact, the argument can be easily made that divine laws as they are expressed in the Bible or the Koran are simply the canonization of human agreements and social contracts, girdled with super-human aura to make them more easily enforceable."
The Case Against God: Science and the Falsifiability Question in Theology
By Massimo Pigliucci http://www.skeptic.com/archives05.html
Just thought this was relevant to this discussion.
ChristianSkeptic: If your quotation above is true then you cannot provided any good reason to stop the evil atheist president from implimenting his plan.
Thus proving my point.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:13:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ChristianSkeptic:
If your quotation above is true then you cannot provided any good reason to stop the evil atheist president from implimenting his plan.
Thus proving my point.
I have a feeling that any reason we provide wouldn't be a 'good' reason to you...
And I don't think you're using your fallacy definitions correctly...
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:14:26 [Permalink]
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Quotewoman:[B]Here's a quote from a world leader....Adolf Hitler...
ChristianSkeptic: I do not understand how you could have reached the conclusion that I or the thought experiment I have presented in anyway supports such a policy since I present such a case as being a moral dilemma.
What I think is at work here is that quote woman attacks christianity since her moral system cannot answer to the thought experiment.
Attacking Christianity does not prove any alternative system. Remember, the topic is for you to answer.
Quotewoman, what would say to the atheist president of the thought experiment in order to change his mind?
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:16:13 [Permalink]
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Atheism says nothing about anything other than the NON belief in a god or gods. It is NOT a belief system. It says nothing about economics or politics. Therefore, your 'president' is only consistent with atheism in that he doesn't believe in God, not that he has no morals; which, again, I say is your hidden argument. I say hidden, because you go through a ridiculous amount of unnecessary stuff in your experiment about economy, income, and national happiness...
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:17:45 [Permalink]
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To "Quotewoman",
I do not think Adolph Hitler is a very good example of someone you would want to quote. He was probably one of the slimiest of politicians that ever existed. I certainly do not believe that we can ascertain any true beliefs of that monster's. Also his idea of morality being taught to people is totally different from what a Jew or Christian believes God makes the basis for.
Besides you are only trying to evade ChristianSkeptic's question by implying an invalid argument (at least I assume you were trying to imply something). That would be like a debate between a republican and a liberal. All the liberal would have to do is quote Bill Clinton saying that he supported small government as a reason for the Republican not to. I kind of poorly worded that statement, but I think you get my point.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:19:01 [Permalink]
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I think that quote from Adolf Hitler is just common demogoguery employed by every political faction that has ever existed.
Get out of the way when politicians leap to show which party has cornered the market on morality!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:21:10 [Permalink]
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Tokydreamer: ..your 'president' is only consistent with atheism in that he doesn't believe in God, not that he has no morals; which, again, I say is your hidden argument.
ChristianSkeptic: Whoever asserts must proof. Therefore Kurisu-san where is your proof that the atheist president of the thought experiment in choosing to follow his evil policy is not an atheist or at least not being consistent with his atheism?
The question is what good reason can you provide to change his mind?
The standard being your case to him must be such that the only way he can reject it is to do so on self-conscious irrational grounds.
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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:22:07 [Permalink]
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Tokydreamer: I have a feeling...
ChristianSkeptic: Is it based on any evidence?
Tokydreamer: And I don't think you're using your fallacy definitions correctly...
ChristianSkeptic: Prove it.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:24:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ChristianSkeptic:
where is your proof that the atheist president of the thought experiment in choosing to follow his evil policy is not an atheist or at least not being consistent with his atheism?
How can I prove anything about YOUR thought experiment president? He's a fabrication of your mind! I'm saying that the only way ANYONE (your imaginary, absurd president included, if you want to be consistent with reality) can be considered consistent with atheism is that they don't believe in a god or gods. Their behavior otherwise has no bearing on atheism. YOU are the one claiming otherwise, so before you continue, YOU prove that he is being consistent with atheism by being a mass murderer. This is your argument, that an atheist has no reason to be moral, only irrational religion provides morality (and much better minds than I'll ever hope to be have already refuted this nonsense thousands of years ago). Your stated objective in this 'thought experiment' is to 'develop an argument against atheism'. Therefore, by having an atheist be a mass murderer, has not only been refuted, like I and many others have said, but is also extremely insulting, and very unChristianlike...
or maybe not, come to think about it...
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:27:49 [Permalink]
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ChristianSkeptic: where is your proof that the atheist president...is not an atheist or at least not being consistent with his atheism?
Tokyodreamer: …ANYONE …can be considered consistent with atheism is that they don't believe in a god or gods. Their behavior otherwise has no bearing on atheism.
ChristianSkeptic: If someones behavior is consistent with atheism then yes indeed their behavior has a bearing on atheism.
Tokyodreamer: ..YOU prove that he is being consistent with atheism by being a mass murderer.
ChristianSkeptic: OK. Since the economic policy in question does not contradict what the atheist president believes then he is being consistent with his atheism.
Tokyodreamer: .. This is your argument, that an atheist has no reason to be moral…
ChristainSkeptic: Correct. And the inability of atheists such as you to answer the thought experiment proves my point.
Tokyodreamer:.. only irrational religion provides morality (and much better minds than I'll ever hope to be have already refuted this nonsense thousands of years ago).
ChristianSkeptic: Maybe these “better minds” never had to answer this thought experiment
Tokyodreamer: Your stated objective in this 'thought experiment' is to 'develop an argument against atheism'.
ChristianSkeptic: Give me credit for being honesty. Honesty is the best policy because God exists .
Tokyodreamer: Therefore, by having an atheist be a mass murderer, has not only been refuted, like I and many others have said,
ChristianSkeptic: Saying so does not make it so. You have not responded to the five points I made to your position earlier.
Tokyodreamer: but is also extremely insulting,
ChristainSkeptic: The thought experiment is not insulting to the tough-minded person.
Tokyodreamer: and very unChristianlike...
ChristianSkeptic: If you love someone, you will tell her or him the truth.
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quotewoman
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:29:22 [Permalink]
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Hitler was the perfect person to quote in this case. He was using "morality" as a mask for his bigotry. The exact same thing that Christian Skeptic is doing with his little "thought experiment." Hitler didn't fool anyone either.
Here's another Nazi quote, "Merciless and Moral." That was the motto of the SS. Perhaps Christian Skeptic would like that made into a tee shirt.
The Nazis considered the morality which the Jews and Poles expressed to be as invalid as CS considers that of Atheists, and for the exact same reasons.
Shame on you Sir. Such outrageous bigotry cannot be accepted in civilized company.
Evil Atheist President indeed. He is nothing but a reflection of your own twisted hatred.
The last President we had who had the personal courage to be openly Atheist was Abraham Lincoln. I suppose you think he was an arch fiend also.
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quotewoman
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:29:58 [Permalink]
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I should like to try my own "thought experiment" if I might.
Re-read this entire exchange, both page one and this. Read both the attacks and the defenses. Only this time substitute the name Atheist with that of another non–Christian group. Let's say we use Jews as our substitute. Every time Atheist is mentioned read the word Jew instead.
Now tell me with a straight face that this isn't outragous religous bigotry and hatred.
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:31:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by QuoteWoman:
Now tell me with a straight face that this isn't outragous religous bigotry and hatred.
Jews can have the perfect basis for morality. They can believe in God. Wait a minute, weren't the Jewish people's beliefs based off something kinda like that? Hmm...
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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