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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
 Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:33:14 [Permalink]
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Quote Woman: Hitler ..He was using "morality" as a mask for his bigotry. The exact same thing that Christian Skeptic is doing with his little "thought experiment."
ChristianSkeptic: Quotewoman, what would say to the atheist president of the thought experiment in order to change his mind?
QuoteWoman: Here's another Nazi quote, "Merciless and Moral." That was the motto of the SS.
ChristianSkeptic: You apparently know a lot about the Nazis. I could have never came up with such a quote.
QuoteWoman: Perhaps Christian Skeptic would like that made into a tee shirt.
ChristainSkeptic: No thanks. As a Christain, I have good reason to reject all things evil.
QuoteWoman: The Nazis considered the morality which the Jews and Poles expressed to be as invalid as CS considers that of Atheists, and for the exact same reasons.
ChristianSkeptic: I do not know anything about Nazis, but I do contend that athiests have no good reason to be moral.
QuoteWoman: Shame on you Sir.
ChristainSkeptic: QuoteWoman, you are sexy when you scold me.
QuoteWoman: Evil Atheist President indeed.
ChristianSkeptic: We agree. Now please share with me what you would say to the evil athiest president in order to change his mind.
QuoteWoman: He is nothing but a reflection of your own twisted hatred.
ChristianSkeptic: This is false. The atheist president is my antithesis, but this point cannot be reasonably sustained by an atheist.
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quotewoman
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:34:39 [Permalink]
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ChristainSkeptic: QuoteWoman, you are sexy when you scold me.
A religious bigot and a sexist. What a winning combination. Prehaps you would care to share your views on homosexuals and African Americans with the group also.
Tiptup, your statement about Jewish morals vs. those of Atheists is reprehensible. Hitler used the fact that the Jews didn't worship Jesus in exactly the same way you are using Atheists not worshiping god. As a means to express his hatred of a group. You should be ashamed of yourself.
You seem to pride yourself in your worthy Christian Fundimentalist views of the Jewish race. Hypocrite —tolerance of Jews by (some) Fundimentalists is a recent developement. I defy you to even find the term "Judeo–Christian tradition" ever used prior to the Second World War.
Yours is a creed based on hatred.
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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:35:49 [Permalink]
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ChristainSkeptic (CS): QuoteWoman, you are sexy when you scold me.
QuoteWoman: A religious bigot…
CS: I have already refuted this assertion. What would it take from me to change your perception of me apart from becoming an atheist?
QuoteWoman: ..and a sexist. What a winning combination.
CS: I am glad you like it sexy. Seriously, I do not understand how you have reached the conclusion that I am a sexist by expressing my attraction to the opposite sex and you in particular.
QuoteWoman: Perhaps you would care to share your views on homosexuals
CS: I make a distinction between the homosexual person who I love as my brother in Christ and her or his homosexuality which is a mental illness.
QuoteWoman: and African Americans with the group also.
CS: I am officially an African American, though it may be the case that my and my mom's genetic background, having more native American ancestry (Blackfoot and Cherokee) than African maybe the best explanation for my patterns of behavior, thoughts and feels. I have yet to meet my dad. Though people say I look just like him. I now wonder how much native ancestry does he have and therefore the more I have.
Nevertheless, I am a “person of color” who has long believed himself to be a West-African. Therefore, I know from experience and thought better than most people all there is to know about racial issues.
Since we are now on the subject, I ask you QuoteWoman, would you agree with me that U.S. Americans like myself and maybe even you, erroneously assume that a “black” person equals a West-African person and that the natives of North America were “red” people and that one drop of African blood makes one an African?
Based on your responses thus far, QuoteWoman, I suspect you are just another liberal.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:37:02 [Permalink]
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I don't know where Quote Woman gets her info from but I like the TV.
A couple of weeks ago on A&E (or was it The History Channel?) there was a show about Hitler and the Holy Grail. Probably trying to cash in on the Harrison Ford movie. One of those shows where the camera zooms in and pans across a lot of still photos and paintings.
They showed the SS castle, done in the Bauhaus style of all things. There in the inner sanctum looking like a German expressionist movie was the motto —Merciless and Moral— carved in stone, big eagles on either side.
They went on to interview an ancient but still strikingly beautiful woman who had somehow (I missed just how) been connected with the SS.
She didn't know what the big fuss was about. According to her the SS were very religious, you couldn't ask for better Christians. And moral, she said they were the most moral people she had ever met in her long life.
So take heart Christian Skeptic, even if none of us will answer you thought experiment to your satisfaction, you may still get a show on basic cable.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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ChristianSkeptic
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:38:24 [Permalink]
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JohnPaul Slater: So take heart Christian Skeptic...you may still get a show on basic cable.
ChristianSkeptic: Thanks
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:40:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Quote Woman:
Tiptup, your statement about Jewish morals vs. those of Atheists is reprehensible. Hitler used the fact that the Jews didn't worship Jesus in exactly the same way you are using Atheists not worshiping god. As a means to express his hatred of a group. You should be ashamed of yourself.
You seem to react in a very emotional fashion. If you had thoughtfully read any of my previous beliefs, you would have seen that I not only believe Atheists are moral, but that in many cases they are more moral then my fellow Christians. The fact that you keep trying to equate CS or myself with Hitler shows your hatred of people who have opposing views from yours.
All CS is proposing is that morality has no basis without some kind of a God. So even though you don't believe in Him, you still practice the morality He created. If you believe that we are evil because of this view, you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.
Also your idea of history is misinformed. The Nazis hated the Christian religion almost as much as they hated the Jewish people. One of the Nazi's first goals was to eliminate Jesus and Christianity from the lives of the German people. Also your SS that you quoted believed in a pagan form of Teutonic religion as a basis for their bigotry. You can quote as many sayings of Hitler as you want, but it can't erase what he really tried to accomplish.
quote:
You seem to pride yourself in your worthy Christian Fundimentalist views of the Jewish race. Hypocrite —tolerance of Jews by (some) Fundimentalists is a recent developement. I defy you to even find the term "Judeo–Christian tradition" ever used prior to the Second World War.
That's right, I am a citizen of the Untied States of America. Thus I have been raised to believe the views of our founding fathers that wanted a system of government that tolerates all religions, even Judaism and Atheism.
The fact that you are not tolerant of our reasonable question, and spew hateful speech in our direction, shows that you do not support freedom of religion. You seem to think of yourself as an open-minded person, but I say that you are a hypocrite.
quote:
Yours is a creed based on hatred.
Yours is a creed, not only based on hatred of me, but of ignorance. I hope you can eventually learn to give up these things. Best regards.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:41:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnPaul Slater:
According to her the SS were very religious, you couldn't ask for better Christians.
I remember that show, and I watched it myself. She never said they were Christian. Also the show said that the S.S. believed that Christianity was a plague on the true German religion of their Holy Grail and King Arthur stuff.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:43:02 [Permalink]
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You must be remembering some other show.
You also seem to be remembering some alternate history. One where Nazi's weren't Christians. Can't blame you for wanting to disassociate yourself from that lot but it just doesn't match the facts.
Personally I wish Stalin and his pals weren't Atheists—but what are ya gonna do?
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:44:19 [Permalink]
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This is a somewhat interesting topic...should we move it to a separate forum?
"And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord." - Adolph Hitler
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:45:46 [Permalink]
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Tokyodreamer–move it? I'm not sure; I kinda like how it is blocking the "thought experiment" with the truth.
A subtle point that I think Quote Woman is missing is that Hitler thought of himself as a wonderful guy (he vas such a gud dancer).
Christian Skeptic has said things on this site that if he had said them in any office he would have been fired on the spot.
He thinks he's a wonderful guy.
Tiptup has no concept that he's talking pure bigotry.It's okay to say things about Atheists, but it's wrong to make the same remarks about Jews. He just doesn't get it.
If we were all in a bar together a fist fight would start (odds on Quote Woman) but here in the enforced distance of cyberspace I find it kind of funny–in a sick sort of way.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:47:18 [Permalink]
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Yeah, I guess you're right...
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:49:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnPaul Slater:
Tiptup has no concept that he's talking pure bigotry.It's okay to say things about Atheists, but it's wrong to make the same remarks about Jews. He just doesn't get it.
What have I said about atheists that even resembles bigotry? I come to a website and have a person tell me that all Christians are like Hitler because he spewed some statements where he supposedly used Christianity as a basis for the horrors he committed. Believe me I can quote espousing atheist monsters who have said equally terrible things about Jews and other groups of people, and used that as a reason to say that atheists are evil, but do I do that?
Tell me how I am a bigot because I can find no logical basis for morality under atheism. As far as I can tell, if there were no God, then morality would be nothing. What purpose is there to holding one action over another? Oh you say its because society would shun you. Well why is that fundamentally important? Is it so that you can feel happy or comfortable? Why is that important?
As a theist, I believe doing the right thing and loving your neighbor is important because God made the universe and me that way. Thus when I try to be moral I believe there is a true purpose to it. I would just like an atheist to tell me why he or she holds morality and other things like it in high regard?
If I am a bigot because I want atheists to explain to me why they believe we tick the way we do, then I must not know the definition of a bigot. Is it just the way our physical bodies happen to be made, and that we practice morality because we are in bondage to our makeup?
At any rate its nice to see how all of you handle someone who disagrees with you. CS has not said anything hateful, he just wants it explained how his fictional president could be convinced that doing a certain action is evil. What fundamentally makes it evil from an atheistic viewpoint?
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:50:30 [Permalink]
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"Tell me how I am a bigot because
I can find no logical basis for morality under atheism."
That's how. You said it again.
It was bad enough before people explained the bases for morality to you. That was bigotry founded on ignorance or on the lies that other people had fooled you with.
But after we had explained our positions it became straight out inexcuseable bigotry.
Try this one on for size—you base your morality on God. God is a fantasy. Therefore your morality is a fantasy. I don't care what you say my mind is made up.
Does that sound like a bigoted remark to you? It should because it is. That is exactly the thing you are saying to us—and you see no problem with it.
You are so convinced that you and only you are right that it becomes Fundies against the world. And they wonder why the general population views them with disdain.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:52:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnPaul Slater:
You are so convinced that you and only you are right that it becomes Fundies against the world. And they wonder why the general population views them with disdain.
That's where you are completely wrong. If you could explain your beliefs in a way that made sense, then I would easily accept them. Unfortunately you all keep giving explanations that, while in depth, thoughtful, and honest, fundamentally possess a type of God and contradict with true atheism. If you were able to be logical for just a couple minutes, JohnPaul, then we wouldn't have this problem.
For instance, lets go back to your Nihilists. While I disagree with their views, at least I can understand them. They believe that there is no truth, and thus there is no fundamental basis for anything, including morality. That belief I can handle, at least it is not contradictory. Is this what you believe?
You could believe that we have no control over our fates. Then the reason we follow this fundamentally unneeded morality could be because it provides immediate evolutionary bonuses or something. This belief would mean that there is no moral truth and would take away any notion of free will, but at least it is not contradictory. Is this what you believe?
From what I can tell, most of you seem to hover around a pseudo Nihilist attitude. You believe that morality changes, but that it is fundamentally important for the time being. Also that evolution, society, and feelings provide this fundamental morality. Unfortunately for atheism, this turns either the grand process of evolution, humanity, or our own personal feelings into a supernatural force that gives a purpose to society's actions. If this is what you believe, then fine. But just keep in mind that your reasons for morality disagree with atheism.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 19:53:51 [Permalink]
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Is it possible to carry out a completely selfless act? Is anything we do (whether or not we define it as 'moral') NOT based on some selfish desire?
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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