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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2006 : 15:09:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Mab said:
quote:
Which is easier? Removing religion, or restoring social security and economy?
Oh, I don't disagree with you.
I even fully agree that most suicide bombers are not motivated by religion. They have other reasons for wanting to strike out.
What I am saying is, simply, that religion is the enabler. If they didn't have the conviction that they would be rewarded in the afterlife there would likely be far fewer willing to strap on the TNT.
Would many still choose to fight? Undoubtedly. But they would also be amenable to reason and negotiation when those things finally (and I hope they will) appear.
As it is now, with fundamentalist islamic religion in charge, I think there is little hope of a real solution to the problems in that part of the world.
I think you're right on the mark, Dude. If one considers the reason that the IRA never tried suicide bombing, the answer presents itself. In Muslim communities, the widely held belief in martyrs going directly to Paradise acts as a powerfully "enabling" force (along with social and financial rewards given to surviving family members), and allows the human bombs to know that they will be considered heroes, not nutcases by their families when they are gone. (Contrast this with the dogma prohibiting suicide in Catholic Ireland.) Religion is thus the key, even when the bombers themselves are not remarkably religious.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 05:22:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Orwellingly Yurz
Corporate/fascists intensify calling others what they THEMSELVES are: nazi-like. Mr. Ann Coulter and some of his colleagues, like: Bill O'Really?, Roosh Limpbat, Sean Insanity and G. War Bush are all using the term fascist in connection with terrorists, etc., more than ever these days.
Most terrorists are poor and burdened by a tribal sense of an anthropromorphic deity. They have not the foggiest notion of what to do regarding big business; Osama might, however, since he comes from a Yemini business family. But those who bomb themselves and innocent people are not fascists, they're fuckin' stupid; much like that small (thank god) percentage of Americans who still support G. War and his boss, Dick Cheney.
Please look up the definition of fascist. The primary meaning for it relates to what Benito Mussolini wanted to change the name, fascist, to: corporatism. Hilter didn't go for it. Fascism, in essence, means government run by business. It's opposite, Soviet communisim, means commerce controlled by government. Both are not good; but tell that to people in this country who don't know how close to being fascist they are, i.e. Bill O'Really?!
And...I think it's pretty clear to most Americans today that the Soviet model is something to eschew. Thus, reactionary folks can't rely on calling everyone a Commie today to get what they want. In many cases, when it WAS effective, it was but a red herring; much like terrorism is in some ways, 9/11, flag desecration, same-sex marriage, gun laws, immigration and having the Christian 10 Commandments on an edifice of jurisprudence. All of these are resonant to the thinking that was inculcated before and during the Third Reich.
What Soviet Communism and National Socialism (fascist nazism) have in common is that they are totalitarian, which is the opposite of diverse, liberal democracy; the kind of democracy the president thinks he spreading. But, as the terrorists who know nothing about big business, G. War knows not an inkling about liberal democracy. Everyday, he demonstrates that in the media.
The left has been calling the right fascist for years. Why are you upset that they hi-jacked the term to apply it - albeit still wrongly; to a much closer interpretation that is radical Islam?
I don't see how their diety represents anthropomorphism, and I don't see how it is tribal.
Yeah, it's a bloody mess out there..... but:
Am I missing something? Is skeptism only against religion, and when politics are approached it goes out the window? As skeptics, shouldn't there be some inkling of critical-thinking in politics? Shouldn't rhetoric and name-calling be looked upon as a bane, as the emotion just clouds the reason that is critical-thinking? Shouldn't there be an attempt at making sure the terms we use actuaky fit? I realize that the English language is a bear, with all the differnet meanings for the same word, but come on... at least attempt it....
Peace
Joe
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The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 23:18:36 [Permalink]
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As I read fascism, it fits the current Republican administration more than the Islamic theocracy which seems to be the Islamic ideal.
Wiki on fascism. It busts the irony meter to have the Bush camp try to call the Islamic extremists fascists.
"Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it."
If that isn't the Cheney Bush government, I couldn't think of any more apt description. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2006 : 07:05:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
As I read fascism, it fits the current Republican administration more than the Islamic theocracy which seems to be the Islamic ideal.
Wiki on fascism. It busts the irony meter to have the Bush camp try to call the Islamic extremists fascists.
"Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it."
If that isn't the Cheney Bush government, I couldn't think of any more apt description.
But the definiton, from that wiki (not association by many scholars):
"defines fascism as "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"
Peace
Joe
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The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2006 : 18:40:59 [Permalink]
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| And you don't think the Bush admin, especially Cheney, at least lean heavily in that direction? |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 06:14:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
And you don't think the Bush admin, especially Cheney, at least lean heavily in that direction?
What I said (emphasis added)
quote:
... to apply it - albeit still wrongly[u]; to a [u]much closer interpretation that is radical Islam?
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The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 14:00:09 [Permalink]
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Political sloganering has been a part of the political dialog for a very long time. Probably from the git-go…
I threw in a couple of my own, and I'm very sure that there are many many more where these came from…
Family Values:
Anti gay. Really, anti everything that doesn't promote a Judeo-Christian theocracy…
Silent Majority:
This one was all public relations since there was no silent majority. Put another way by, oh, I dunno, Nixon maybe? “The polls do not actually reflect the views of the American public, most of whom silently support the war...”
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 18:45:23 [Permalink]
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YO: Peaceful Joe! Let me make it clearer. The Bill O'Reallys? of the world are good at usurping words that best define them to accuse those who oppose them. By O'Really? calling me a fascist because I have some semblance of remorse for innocent Arabs as much as I have for innocent Jews who are blown up each by the other's opposition in the Middle East, Mr. Bill implies to his viewers that I am the nazi, when in fact, he is. It's that process of the hate talkshow people, over the past 2 decades, getting out in front with the framing of an issue, and in this case, usage of the word "nazi" or "fascist."
By the way, anyone not UPSET about this bunch of federal evildoers in power now, along with their lackies and shills (like O'Really?), who are savaging our government with their visionless lassitude, should probably join the Bush administration, if they haven't already.
Just after Bush "won" his second term, I got a blanket email on my office computer from James Dobson, the rightwing "minister" from Colorado. It said that the reason the GOP won the election is because of its values. It went on to suggest that maybe I and others I know should re-think our positions and, via values, change into Republicans.
I wrote Mr. Dobson back a little email which said, "The reason I'm a Democrat, sir, is because I HAVE values. So, I don't need anyone else telling me what they ought to be."
OY! |
"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 00:40:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Finally a clip with Ann Coulter that didn't upset my stomach.
At last she's given the respect that she deserves
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/24/ann-coulter-gets-her-freak-on/
That was great! Especially the last part, where they just decided to ignore Coulter. Oh joy, joy, joy! |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 01:18:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Finally a clip with Ann Coulter that didn't upset my stomach.
At last she's given the respect that she deserves
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/24/ann-coulter-gets-her-freak-on/
That was great! Especially the last part, where they just decided to ignore Coulter. Oh joy, joy, joy!
I usually get so angry watching that liar (even though I know she spews naught but lies) that I can't stand to stomach watching her open her mouth at all. But that was good. I loved her looking around waiting for the outrage over her treatment that never comes.
Bye, bitch! Looks like you're irrelevant!
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 04:48:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Orwellingly Yurz
YO: Peaceful Joe! Let me make it clearer. The Bill O'Reallys? of the world are good at usurping words that best define them to accuse those who oppose them. By O'Really? calling me a fascist because I have some semblance of remorse for innocent Arabs as much as I have for innocent Jews who are blown up each by the other's opposition in the Middle East, Mr. Bill implies to his viewers that I am the nazi, when in fact, he is. It's that process of the hate talkshow people, over the past 2 decades, getting out in front with the framing of an issue, and in this case, usage of the word "nazi" or "fascist."
By the way, anyone not UPSET about this bunch of federal evildoers in power now, along with their lackies and shills (like O'Really?), who are savaging our government with their visionless lassitude, should probably join the Bush administration, if they haven't already.
Just after Bush "won" his second term, I got a blanket email on my office computer from James Dobson, the rightwing "minister" from Colorado. It said that the reason the GOP won the election is because of its values. It went on to suggest that maybe I and others I know should re-think our positions and, via values, change into Republicans.
I wrote Mr. Dobson back a little email which said, "The reason I'm a Democrat, sir, is because I HAVE values. So, I don't need anyone else telling me what they ought to be."
OY!
Let me make it clearer:
First, you complained about them using the term islamo-fascist. I just pointed out that the term was closer to radical islamists then to the Bush Administation.
Now your complaint is them calling you, personally, a nazi to which your reply is "no, you are."
I am still missing something...... Why the hell all the bs rhetoric and name calling in a skepticks forum. I came here expecting a little more then all the tired bs that I could get in any one of hundreds of political forums on the net.
So, I ask again... Shouldn't rhetoric and name-calling be looked upon as a bane, as the emotion just clouds the reason that is critical-thinking? Shouldn't there be an attempt at making sure the terms we use actuaky fit?
Peace
Joe
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The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 04:54:08 [Permalink]
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Coulter has no ability to put up a coherent argument in any fair debate. She's laughable in this confrontation, simply because she has no facts, only the same old, blame-Clinton line. And it shows, big time.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 21:51:18 [Permalink]
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YO, JO: You're still coming in kinda unclear, but I think we've said enough to one another.
Peace be to you.
OY |
"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 00:15:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
...Why the hell all the bs rhetoric and name calling in a skepticks forum...Shouldn't there be an attempt at making sure the terms we use actuaky fit?
Peace
Joe
Well, here's how I sees it. It's a question of accuracy. Calling Republicans and Conservatives or even NeoCons "Nazis" is not accurate; (not yet at any rate.) "Nazi" implies for most people, uniformed storm troopers saying "Sieg Heil" and goose steeping around in snappy uniforms. (BTW, calling Liberals "Nazis" is way way Looney. Liberals and progressives are the folks the real Nazi's want to round up in pout in their hideous concentration camps.)
However, calling the Bush administration "fascist" is not completely off the mark if one uses the term as Mussolini preferred it. He called fascism "corporatism" – a conservative state with minimal government regulation of corporations. It includes war and militarism justified by the overt scape-goating of nations whose resources are desired, or justification of war by expedience with strong appeals to patriotism.
I'm reminded of the Danish composer Carl Nielsen who prefaced his 5th Symphony with the words: "Patriotism has become a spiritual syphilis that devours the brains and grins out through empty eye sockets with moronic hate." That's the Bush administration in a nutshell.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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