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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2006 : 04:46:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
GK Paul said:
quote:
All the fancy scientific terminology in the world won't change my mind.
In other words, you don't care what the evidence says at all. Your mind is closed to it.
Which is fairly obvious from your refusal to even acknowledge that evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing.
What will it take to get you to even look at the evidence for evolution? Are you so closed off to anything but religious dogma that you will deny reality in favor of your false worldview?
The evidence might change my mind but the terminology won't. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 04:59:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
GK Paul said:
quote:
All the fancy scientific terminology in the world won't change my mind.
In other words, you don't care what the evidence says at all. Your mind is closed to it.
Which is fairly obvious from your refusal to even acknowledge that evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing.
What will it take to get you to even look at the evidence for evolution? Are you so closed off to anything but religious dogma that you will deny reality in favor of your false worldview?
The evidence might change my mind but the terminology won't.
Terminology? You mean the words used to describe the evidence.
Dude summed it up nicely. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 05:23:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Have you ever given to charity, have you ever given money to a transient, have you ever felt sorry for someone, have you ever felt righteous indignation, have you ever felt happy at a job well done, have you ever felt guilty about doing something.
That is not proof of a soul. That is proof of chemical interactions in the brain producing what we label "feelings" or "emotions", but not proof of a soul.
Are you trying to say that morality comes from the soul which could only be made by god? Perhaps you should search for some naturlistic explanations of how human morality evolved from the instinct for survival. A quick run down: the individual wants to survive. In order for the individual to have the best chance to live in the harsh world, individuals formed groups. These groups, in order to survive, came up with "rules". Different groups have different rules influenced by many factors. Without any science, the supernatural was used to explain things that were, at the time, unexplainable. The rules and the supernatural were naturally meshed by the individuals in the groups charged with leadership. Etc, etc...
Altruistic feelings are an offshoot of the basic scenario described above. I give to charities (which I do) because if I get in trouble, I hope people will help me out. I do not kill because I don't want to be killed. I do not steal because I do not want to be stolen from. There are other posts on this forum about this.
"Do unto others"... but no supernatural explanation needed. BTW "do unto others" was not an original concept by Jesus/Paul. That concept had been around a very long time. Perhaps some research will enlighten you.
For the record, those religous persons who run charities earn my deepest admiration, and is one of the few good things a religious belief can give. Unfortunately, there are very few of them. One wonders why given the commandments that Jesus stated about the poor. I also note that charities are run by other religions and even dirty evil agnostics/atheists. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/21/2006 05:25:04 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 06:13:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Have you ever given to charity, have you ever given money to a transient, have you ever felt sorry for someone, have you ever felt righteous indignation, have you ever felt happy at a job well done, have you ever felt guilty about doing something.
Hitler did and felt all these things, therefore souls must be the cause of evil in the world. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 06:49:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
GK Paul wrote: quote:
And therein is the great power of the cross. The power to get people off drugs, the power to overcome depression, the power to save marriages, the power to heal, and on and on. The Christian God is mostly a God about love. But as I said before He is serious about sin; because in His Holy perfection sin is repulsive to God. But in His wisdom He gave us a way to be redeemed. And in a way that shows His great love for mankind.
There is zero evidence that born again Christians use drugs less, suffer less from depression, there is actually evidence that they get divorced at a higher rate than the American population in general, and no evidence that prayer or Christian faith heals illnesses of any kind. Are you trying to suggest that having Christian faith and accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior will result in a better life in this life? If you are claiming such a thing, there is plenty of hard evidence proving it a false claim. What are you going to do if you get cancer, see a doctor or pray? If you could only choose one, which would you choose? Which has a better record for sucess in this life?
From The National Center for Policy Analysis: Bible Belt Leads U.S. In Divorces http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?page=article&Article_ID=10961
quote:
Aside from the quickie-divorce Mecca of Nevada, no region of the United States has a higher divorce rate than the Bible Belt. Nearly half of all marriages break up, but the divorce rates in these southern states are roughly 50 percent above the national average.
According to federal figures:
* Nationally, there were about 4.2 divorces for every thousand people in 1998.
* The rate was 8.5 per thousand in Nevada, 6.4 in Tennessee, 6.1 in Arkansas, 6.0 in Alabama and Oklahoma.
* Of southeastern states, only South Carolina's rate of 3.8 was below the national average.
* By contrast, the divorce rate is less than 3.0 in Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York.
Why so many divorces in the Bible Belt?
Experts cite low household incomes (Oklahoma ranks 46th and Arkansas 47th), and a tendency for couples to marry at a younger age than in many other states.
Religion may play a role, since some of the lowest divorce rates are in northeastern states with relatively high household incomes and large numbers of Roman Catholics whose church doesn't recognize divorce.
Bible Belt states, in contrast, are dominated by fundamentalist Protestant denominations that proclaim the sanctity of marriage but generally do not want to estrange churchgoers who do divorce.
And from Religious Tolerance:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
quote:
Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is within 2 percentage points. The survey found:
- 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
- 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
- Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significently higher than for other faith groups, and for Atheists and Agnostics. (My emphasis)
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
A greater example of the power of Christianity would be a group that has totally devoted their lifestyle to Christian ideals. Probably no group walks the walk of a Christian lifestyle more than the Amish. They have lower depression rates (with no modern conveniences) and an incredible divorce rate of 1/2 of 1%. That's 1 divorce for every 200 marriages. Punch in "Amish divorce rate" on google and you'll find much evidence on this. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/21/2006 06:52:19 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 06:50:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
I stand by my statement. I believe it takes more faith to believe humans evolved from non-living chemicals than it takes to believe in God. All the fancy scientific terminology in the world won't change my mind. Now if humans ever created a one-celled living organism that was able to reproduce on its own from non-living chemicals, I might reconsider my faith statement but I believe humans will never be able to do that.
I resent the implication that I 'believe' in abiogenesis. I no more believe in it than I do in any sort of a deity.
I am a skeptic. I believe in nothing unsupported by empirical evidence. The evidence for abiogenesis is not in as yet, so why should I believe it? It might turn out that some god or other did indeed cause the beginning of life. Until Science proves otherwise, the possibility, however remote, remains.
No one knows for sure how life began on this earth, not I and not you, and not even the scientists who research and study the topic. There have been certain experiments that show that it might have come from an early, chemical enviornment, but at this writing, it is not yet conclusive.
As a skeptic. I will listen to hear-say, but then I want some solid reference that I can investigate to back it up. Thus, I strongly doubt the existance of any of the plethoria of gods, goddess and other outright monsters that have been proposed by various peoples since the beginning of sapience.
Will a one-celled organism ever be created in the lab? I don't know and at this point it doesn't seem likely. A single celled animal is extraordinarly complicated. Indeed, it would be earth-shaking news if it happened, but.... that doesn't mean that it can't happen, does it?
I doubt that you will open this link, but I feel called upon to put it up anyway: quote:
The Evolution Fact FAQ
M. R. Leipzig (c)1997-1998
Last revision 27 January, 1998
If one is to surf the web today and try and make some sort of sense of the bewildering array of information (running the Gardnerian gamut of 'good, bad and bogus') so easily available there; one can become quickly mired in the voluminous mainstream scientific and less-than-mainstream pseudoscientific terminology, arguments and contentions. As an attempt to hopefully help 'clear the muddied waters', level the playing field (I speak hopefully, although not terribly optimistically, that this can be accomplished without the use of explosives; verbal or otherwise) and turn some of the intensely emotive partisan friction of the Creation/Evolution issue into light, I offer the following:
What is Evolution? (and, more importantly, what is not evolution.)
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 07:21:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
A greater example of the power of Christianity would be a group that has totally devoted their lifestyle to Christian ideals. Probably no group walks the walk of a Christian lifestyle more than the Amish. They have lower depression rates (with no modern conveniences) and an incredible divorce rate of 1/2 of 1%. That's 1 divorce for every 200 marriages. Punch in "Amish divorce rate" on google and you'll find much evidence on this.
I didn't know that the Amish was allowed to divorce...
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 07:45:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Amish marry Amish - no intermarriage is allowed. Divorce is not permitted and separation is very rare.
http://pittsburgh.about.com/cs/pennsylvania/a/amish_2.htm
Kinda hard to divorce when you aren't allowed to. So they just stay in unhappy marraiges until they die. Great!
Probably most are "happy" since they only get to marry others exactly like them. Boring! At least they don't have to worry about any "brown people" getting in...
There's the true POWER of religion - removal of choice by those that think they know better. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/21/2006 07:48:44 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 09:02:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
GK Paul:
With regard to Luther. Well first of all I didn't use him to support an argument. I used him to describe Lucifer when someonoe asked about Lucifer. Luther had his faults just like Moses, King David, Peter the Apostle, and many others in the Bible. St. Augustine had an illigitimate child as a young man. God uses the imperfect because we are all imperfect.
Well, that's nice. So why bring up Hitler's use, or miss-use of a Darwinian concept to demonstrate the evils of evolution? Luther was far more influential to Hitler than Darwin was. Instead of saying Hitler was a bad guy, you excuse Luther for having faults even though his faults helped give justification to the Nazis for exterminating 6 million Jews because of things Luther actually said and believed. But Darwin gets no pass, even though his concepts were completely perverted by the Nazis.
You are certainly selective in who you vilify based on who influenced the Nazis. This demonstrates the absolute bankruptcy of yours and Coulter's position…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 10:21:19 [Permalink]
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^Great point Kil, but havent you been reading all Christians get a pass on evil except the true practicing Christian Amish.
Hmm divorce and be an outcast/heretic or divorce and leave for a world you dont understand/are afraid of and unprepared for, great choices.
None of us are saying that with perfect people a Utoipian Christian ideal cant be reached, but alas as the Soviets found out, perfect people dont exist. Thus Christians have to answer just like everybody else.
The idea that because of doctorine christians are inherantly less evil than others is ridiculous, there have been peaceful/harmonious people in nearly every culture that has been recorded.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 11:20:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
A greater example of the power of Christianity would be a group that has totally devoted their lifestyle to Christian ideals. Probably no group walks the walk of a Christian lifestyle more than the Amish. They have lower depression rates (with no modern conveniences) and an incredible divorce rate of 1/2 of 1%. That's 1 divorce for every 200 marriages. Punch in "Amish divorce rate" on google and you'll find much evidence on this.
Libya has the lowest divorce rate in the world with only 0.24 divorces per thousand. I didn't see if that was per thousand people or per thousand marriages. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's marriages, making your figures for Amish divorce rate ten times higher than that of the entire Islam nation of Libya. Obviously, by your logic, the Islam god is ten times more likely to be real than your god. So, GK Paul, when can we expect to see you announce your conversion to Islam? Or will you just continue to follow along in your religion which is apparently only one tenth as likely to be real?
Or maybe, as has been pointed out by others already, your cherry picking that Amish divorce rate figure was just an extremely feeble, failed attempt to refute marfknox's comment.
And I'm still waiting for you to define "The True Supreme God" in such a way that we can all understand and agree with your definition. You see, there are several billion people with some notion about some kind of god, but so far, no two of them are able to agree on exactly what it is.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 12:20:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Amish marry Amish - no intermarriage is allowed. Divorce is not permitted and separation is very rare.
http://pittsburgh.about.com/cs/pennsylvania/a/amish_2.htm
Kinda hard to divorce when you aren't allowed to. So they just stay in unhappy marraiges until they die. Great!
Probably most are "happy" since they only get to marry others exactly like them. Boring! At least they don't have to worry about any "brown people" getting in...
There's the true POWER of religion - removal of choice by those that think they know better.
If a Amish man or woman chose to get a divorce they could walk into any lawyers office and ask to get one. They probably would be banished from the community. But they certainly could get one. They choose not to. All young Amish men and woman are asked to make a choice between living in the Amish lifestyle or the outside world's lifestyle. The large majority "choose" the strictly religious Amish lifestyle and thus they choose to live in a community with a 1 out 200 divorce rate. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 12:27:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
If a Amish man or woman chose to get a divorce they could walk into any lawyers office and ask to get one. They probably would be banished from the community. But they certainly could get one. They choose not to. All young Amish men and woman are asked to make a choice between living in the Amish lifestyle or the outside world's lifestyle. The large majority "choose" the strictly religious Amish lifestyle and thus they choose to live in a community with a 1 out 200 divorce rate.
Choose - yeah right. They are brought up their entire childhood as Amish - all their family, friends, everything they know...then are asked to "choose". So if they want to be Amish, but don't like their spouse, they have to "choose".
It is not a choice if it is under force. You can choose to worship/love god, or you go to eternal hell fire. This is not choice. It is rape. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 12:34:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
A greater example of the power of Christianity would be a group that has totally devoted their lifestyle to Christian ideals. Probably no group walks the walk of a Christian lifestyle more than the Amish. They have lower depression rates (with no modern conveniences) and an incredible divorce rate of 1/2 of 1%. That's 1 divorce for every 200 marriages. Punch in "Amish divorce rate" on google and you'll find much evidence on this.
Libya has the lowest divorce rate in the world with only 0.24 divorces per thousand. I didn't see if that was per thousand people or per thousand marriages. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's marriages, making your figures for Amish divorce rate ten times higher than that of the entire Islam nation of Libya. Obviously, by your logic, the Islam god is ten times more likely to be real than your god. So, GK Paul, when can we expect to see you announce your conversion to Islam? Or will you just continue to follow along in your religion which is apparently only one tenth as likely to be real?
Or maybe, as has been pointed out by others already, your cherry picking that Amish divorce rate figure was just an extremely feeble, failed attempt to refute marfknox's comment.
And I'm still waiting for you to define "The True Supreme God" in such a way that we can all understand and agree with your definition. You see, there are several billion people with some notion about some kind of god, but so far, no two of them are able to agree on exactly what it is.
I've saw a TV program where a Muslim woman in Germany was killed by her family for choosing the Modern lifestyle. Woman in Muslim countries risk death by their own family for being promiscuous or divorce. They are not allowed to choose to leave the community like the Amish are. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Antigone
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 12:49:54 [Permalink]
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| The general statement of "Woman in muslim countries risk death by their own family for ..." is just way to general. Not all muslims and not all muslim countries live by these strict laws of islam. Just like not all christians believe the same thing or live by the same rules. Some christian sects allow women to preach, others do not, some think gay marriage is ok, some go to gay people's funerals with signs that say "Fags go to hell." Should we blanket ALL christians as people who go to Funerals with those signs? no |
Mortui non dolent |
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