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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2006 : 13:04:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I've saw a TV program where a Muslim woman in Germany was killed by her family for choosing the Modern lifestyle.
Perhaps you ought to learn how to debate and get "a fact", any fact, before proceeding any further. I say "a fact", as in singular, because, as has been pointed out in response to EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR CLAIMS, you have failed to produce anything of any consequence.
And, as pointed out by the above quoted rebuttal, claiming that you "saw something on TV" points out how woefully pathetic your arguments are. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 13:33:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
I've saw a TV program where a Muslim woman in Germany was killed by her family for choosing the Modern lifestyle. Woman in Muslim countries risk death by their own family for being promiscuous or divorce. They are not allowed to choose to leave the community like the Amish are.
So what? I saw a TV program about a man who murdered his mother, his wife, and his three children, and claimed that he killed them because he was a staunch Christian and believed he was saving their souls by preventing them from disavowing their faith. Shall we therefore conclude that the statistical rate of divorce among Christians is somehow skewed because they murder their spouses rather than getting divorces, or that Christians are generally insane, or maybe that it's somehow righteous for Christians to pick and choose who they might murder in order to save souls?
Oh, it's been three weeks now, and I'm still waiting for you to define "The True Supreme God" in such a way that we can all understand and agree with your definition. You see, there are several billion people with some notion about some kind of god, but so far, no two of them are able to agree on exactly what it is. Or are you going to conveniently ignore that issue as you have so conveniently ignored so many other issues brought into this discussion when you've found them difficult or impossible to explain?
And regarding those issues you haven't ignored, how do you rationalize in your own mind that in order to support your superstition you've needed to resort to dishonesty about so many of those? Yep, I bet your bogeyman god is mighty proud of you doing all that lying to try to defend its existence and spread its good word. Mighty proud, eh? 
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 13:38:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
GK Paul:
With regard to Luther. Well first of all I didn't use him to support an argument. I used him to describe Lucifer when someonoe asked about Lucifer. Luther had his faults just like Moses, King David, Peter the Apostle, and many others in the Bible. St. Augustine had an illigitimate child as a young man. God uses the imperfect because we are all imperfect.
Well, that's nice. So why bring up Hitler's use, or miss-use of a Darwinian concept to demonstrate the evils of evolution? Luther was far more influential to Hitler than Darwin was. Instead of saying Hitler was a bad guy, you excuse Luther for having faults even though his faults helped give justification to the Nazis for exterminating 6 million Jews because of things Luther actually said and believed. But Darwin gets no pass, even though his concepts were completely perverted by the Nazis.
You are certainly selective in who you vilify based on who influenced the Nazis. This demonstrates the absolute bankruptcy of yours and Coulter's position…
I believe Luther's position on the Jews (by the way Christ was a Jew) was wrong. I believe both Darwin's theory and Luther's wrong belief about the Jews influenced Hitler.
I also believe King David's adultery and act of murder was wrong. But like I've said before, God can and will use people who have done wrong. Doing or having done wrong does not mean that a person is incapable of doing or thinking Godly things. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 14:17:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
I've saw a TV program where a Muslim woman in Germany was killed by her family for choosing the Modern lifestyle. Woman in Muslim countries risk death by their own family for being promiscuous or divorce. They are not allowed to choose to leave the community like the Amish are.
So what? I saw a TV program about a man who murdered his mother, his wife, and his three children, and claimed that he killed them because he was a staunch Christian and believed he was saving their souls by preventing them from disavowing their faith. Shall we therefore conclude that the statistical rate of divorce among Christians is somehow skewed because they murder their spouses rather than getting divorces, or that Christians are generally insane, or maybe that it's somehow righteous for Christians to pick and choose who they might murder in order to save souls?
Oh, it's been three weeks now, and I'm still waiting for you to define "The True Supreme God" in such a way that we can all understand and agree with your definition. You see, there are several billion people with some notion about some kind of god, but so far, no two of them are able to agree on exactly what it is. Or are you going to conveniently ignore that issue as you have so conveniently ignored so many other issues brought into this discussion when you've found them difficult or impossible to explain?
And regarding those issues you haven't ignored, how do you rationalize in your own mind that in order to support your superstition you've needed to resort to dishonesty about so many of those? Yep, I bet your bogeyman god is mighty proud of you doing all that lying to try to defend its existence and spread its good word. Mighty proud, eh?
If one reads the article about List they will see that List was under extreme stress and criminal profilers said he used the Religion story to rationalize his actions. If he hadn't of lost his job, and his wife didn't have an advanced case of syphilis, I have to believe it never would of happened.
Christ never gave a definition of the True Supreme God but if you read the Gospels: Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, I believe you'll get a feeling for the God I'm talking about. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/21/2006 14:33:22 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 14:27:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
I also believe King David's adultery and act of murder was wrong. But like I've said before, God can and will use people who have done wrong. Doing or having done wrong does not mean that a person is incapable of doing or thinking Godly things.
Oh, good. So it doesn't really make a whit of difference whether we do what you judge to be good or bad things, because in the long run your bogeyman will decide how things will end up anyway. And that effectively refutes your notion that your god gives people free will. Cool, got it.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 15:13:19 [Permalink]
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Ok, I guess you are never going to stop preaching at us.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 15:58:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
I believe Luther's position on the Jews (by the way Christ was a Jew) was wrong. I believe both Darwin's theory and Luther's wrong belief about the Jews influenced Hitler.
So what?
Luther's position on the Jews was pretty much the prevailing one of his day. The Jews were and sometimes remain everyboy's favorite scapegoat.
And so what again, if Darwin influenced Hitler -- that tired, old red herring has been around for longer than I care to remember. Even if the ToE did influence him, it changes nothing in the soundness of the theory. The ToE has also influenced such as Steven Hawking, Albert Einstein, and the Leakey family, not to mention all but a pathetic handful of the world's scientists, and that makes not the least bit of difference to it, either.
Did you open the link I posted eariler; the article by a Dr. Lepzig?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 16:04:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I've saw a TV program where a Muslim woman in Germany was killed by her family for choosing the Modern lifestyle. Woman in Muslim countries risk death by their own family for being promiscuous or divorce. They are not allowed to choose to leave the community like the Amish are.
Much of those "family honour" traditions are remnants of pre-islamic cultures that has been incorporated into the islamic practice. We've seen a couple of murders young women in Sweden related to "family honour" in Islamic families, but the honour tradition is much older.
It doesn't have as much to do with religion as with practicing control over family members.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 20:53:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I've saw a TV program...
I heard about a TV program with Hitler on it, so therefore television is evil and you're going to hell. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 22:43:30 [Permalink]
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Like I saw on TV once, this movie, and this little girl got like possessed by the Devil. So now when I see little girls, I run the other way!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2006 : 06:49:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
Christ never gave a definition of the True Supreme God but if you read the Gospels: Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, I believe you'll get a feeling for the God I'm talking about.
I didn't ask whether your imaginary pal gave a definition of the "True Supreme God". I asked you to provide it. You talk as if such a thing exists, and as if other people should somehow be able to share your delusion, yet you don't seem willing or able to define it in any tangible way. If you have some special insight as to a definition of the "True Supreme God", spell it out. If the best you can do is suggest we read your story book again, you'd likely be more productive taking your preaching elsewhere.
Keep in mind that most people who participate in these forums have already read the stories in your bible, GK Paul, and most are obviously unconvinced that your bogeyman is real. To assume that you understood some kind of "truth" in your story book that eluded the rest of us is the epitome of arrogance and condescension. After all, even the believers can't agree on which parts of your bible should be taken literally and which should be taken figuratively or symbolically. Your claim that any of it can be accepted as truthful is so far wholly unsubstantiated.
Oh, and again, how do you rationalize in your own mind that in order to support your superstition you must regularly resort to dishonesty? How do you suppose your bogeyman god looks upon you for doing all that lying to try to defend its existence and spread its good word?
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2006 : 06:57:32 [Permalink]
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Well, at least GK Paul has learned that the christian devil isn't quite what he was told it was, Coulter is a pathological liar, and Luther wasn't quite the saint, before posting on this forum...so some good has come out of it. Maybe GK Paul e will now look at the biblical stories a little more intelligently, and not as literal truth just because it says so or the preacher says so.
Perhaps GK Paul may even read up on logical fallacies and critical thinking, since it is quite apparent that when GK Paul was supposedly an atheist, it knew nothing about skepticism. Perhaps that is why GK Paul was swayed by the emotional pulling of religion, and was not armed to protect against this (kinda like Frontline for dogs).
But I doubt it.
BTW, please don't reply to this post, but reply to all the other posts asking for your proof of god, your definition of the True Supreme Being(tm), etc... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/22/2006 07:02:22 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2006 : 08:50:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
GK Paul:
With regard to Luther. Well first of all I didn't use him to support an argument. I used him to describe Lucifer when someonoe asked about Lucifer. Luther had his faults just like Moses, King David, Peter the Apostle, and many others in the Bible. St. Augustine had an illigitimate child as a young man. God uses the imperfect because we are all imperfect.
Well, that's nice. So why bring up Hitler's use, or miss-use of a Darwinian concept to demonstrate the evils of evolution? Luther was far more influential to Hitler than Darwin was. Instead of saying Hitler was a bad guy, you excuse Luther for having faults even though his faults helped give justification to the Nazis for exterminating 6 million Jews because of things Luther actually said and believed. But Darwin gets no pass, even though his concepts were completely perverted by the Nazis.
You are certainly selective in who you vilify based on who influenced the Nazis. This demonstrates the absolute bankruptcy of yours and Coulter's position…
I believe Luther's position on the Jews (by the way Christ was a Jew) was wrong. I believe both Darwin's theory and Luther's wrong belief about the Jews influenced Hitler.
I also believe King David's adultery and act of murder was wrong. But like I've said before, God can and will use people who have done wrong. Doing or having done wrong does not mean that a person is incapable of doing or thinking Godly things.
You miss another point. Coulter, in her quest to show how evil Nazis were influenced by a man she says atheists need, she leaves out the fact that the Nazis were far more influenced by a man considered to be the father of Protestantism and possibly the most famous Christian since biblical times. That fact would have been inconvenient to the ridiculous point she was trying to make.
The fact is, the Nazi's were bad. And it didn't matter to them who they used to justify their evil intentions. Christians, scientists, philosophical social Darwinists, (not to be confused with Darwin's actual scientific theory) it just didn't matter to them. But if you are going to trot out Darwin and his science, you also have to trot out one of the worlds most influential Christians who meant more to the Nazis than Darwin did if honesty is the goal. And Coulter didn't do that. She avoided that because she didn't want to cast a bad light on Christianity by using the same logic with regard to Luther and the Nazis as she did with Darwin and the Nazis. Basically, her logic fails by omitting their Christian influences.
Plus, Filthy is right. What the Nazis did says nothing about the validity of the theory of evolution at all.
Why don't you take off your freaking blinders and see what she did for what it is? Yellow journalism. Her whole argument is nothing but a very smelly red herring and nothing more.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2006 : 16:49:46 [Permalink]
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One little comment. Luther's anti-Semitism is not significant to the Nazi version just because some Nazi scholar dusted off some of Luther's old books. The importance lies mainly in Luther's "contribution" to the long-ingrained anti-Semitism of the German culture. German anti-Semitism didn't end after Luther, and have to be restarted by the Nazis.
Germany has a long tradition of religious intolerance, including anti-Semitism. Luther simply added to this, along with contributions from the Catholic Church (notably, the Calvinists were not anti-Semitic). Certainly, Luther's words were useful to the Nazis, but they were mainly playing on an existing anti-Semitism in German society, the endemic cultural anti-Semitism which Luther helped to create.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 01:43:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
I also believe King David's adultery and act of murder was wrong. But like I've said before, God can and will use people who have done wrong. Doing or having done wrong does not mean that a person is incapable of doing or thinking Godly things.
Oh, good. So it doesn't really make a whit of difference whether we do what you judge to be good or bad things, because in the long run your bogeyman will decide how things will end up anyway. And that effectively refutes your notion that your god gives people free will. Cool, got it.
The example of King David whose house Christ descended from shows us that God will forgive sin if we are sincere when we repent and David did repent. A prophet of God told David that a son of his would die for his adultery with Bathsheba and in fact the first child of David and Bathsheba did die very young... David had great faith in God, and God rewarded him for that faith but he was far from perfect.
As far a free will. Genesis chapter 6 verse 6 shows how God actually regretted making man when He saw how the great majority became evil. This proves that the God of the Bible did not know how His human creations would act in the future and thus proves that the God of the Bible can and does give total free will. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/23/2006 03:05:05 |
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