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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 01/29/2002 : 07:34:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo, it's not enough for me to "just life my life". I am driven to be a better person. It's probably a carryover from childhood, but I also think that if one isn't striving to better themselves, one is only taking up oxygen. No, I don't need any gods for me to strive for their approval. But I need context to help me decide what is "better".
I think your pursuit of better personhood is part of Gorgo's suggestion. He's not referring to any particular way your life must be lived. If bettering yourself is a part of living your life, then so be it.
quote:
With regards to why it has to fit together, for me it does. I've always wanted to know "how" and "why". And I need proof of how and why. I need replicatable results. Obviously, one can't find that in conventional religion.
It is for this reason that philosophical "whys" drive me nuts. They presume a purpose. A philosophical "why" is the same as "for what purpose." It is a singularly meaningless question. Even a transcendendent god does not satisfactorily answer the question "why anything rather than nothing?". Anything that gives purpose to something that exists also itself exists and, oh look, we have an infinte regression. Better to ask the logical "why," which means "by what mechanism."
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What do I know to be true, that makes sense? Nothing. I may be a figment of someone's imagination among other possibilities, so I can't even say "I think, therefore, I am." with any certainty.
Of course you can. How else can you independently verify to yourself that you exist if not by contemplating your own existence? Any sort of logical evidence could be just more "someone's imagination." How would you falsify "I am the product of someone's imagination"? Simply because we can string words together that seem profoundly philosophical does not make the resulting sentences meaningful. Normally, when people insist that something is "beyond our understanding" that means "this is meaningless."
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 09:56:54 [Permalink]
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I'm still lost as to why you don't think that it is up to you to ascribe purpose/meaning to your own life.
If not you, then who?
Xians see themselves as servants (slaves?) of their Master. Their LORD (Aside: I was stopped in front of my house by 2 Kristians who told me that every knee would bend and every tongue would praise the Lord. I told them that I was an Americian (I have the papers to prove it!) and that Americians didn't have any lords or ladies. The most Jesus could expect to be was a Senator. He couldn't be President because he was born in Israel. And we don't kneel to elected officials (Monica L not withstanding)) gives them "meaning".
His meaning, not theirs--and this is supposed to be a good thing.
You, however, are not a servant. You are free. Your life has not been give a meaning by anybody outside of you.
The "meaning of life" is truely a meaningless question without an entity to dictate one.
Something that Xians are more than happy to tell you.
But what is "the meaning" of a rose? The question is senseless. The answer is of no importance. It is a meaningless phrase meant to make Xians feel better about their voluntary subjugation.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 10:33:45 [Permalink]
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Slater, what I mean is that I'm not going to take the time to tally up the scorecard of my life. At the end of it, I'm not going to say "Why was I born?", "I was a bad person.", "I was a good man." I'll still be too busy looking for the joy and beauty in the world, and trying to learn as much about it as I can. No time for scorekeeping.
PH Dreamer, that drives me nuts too. That's why, like you indicate, I ask why in terms of by what mechanism.
I can't independently verify that I exist. As indicated in another thread, I played rugby, and so had occasion to use pain medication. This, combined with beer at the odd rugby function provided some pretty wild yet seemingly real dreams. Perhaps this current life is merely the result of another separated shoulder, some tylenol 4 and Guiness. Kind of a "Matrix" scenario, to use a pop culture reference. I really don't know and have no way to verify.
So what if this life I lead is merely the result of a dream by a schizophrenic? Sure, this personality exists, but it's part of a single person with multiple personalities.
This is probably starting to sound pretty stupid. I'll go on with my search for faith in my own way, and not belabour this point here.
Just because we're hypnotized, that don't mean we can't dance. - Tonio K. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 14:17:17 [Permalink]
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Kaneda Kuonji
quote:
I'll be honest. I'm in this phase right now...I'm currently going for agnostcism, but that the God in question is indifferent to the plight of the world, and that humanity just hasn't caught on yet that how they live their lives is up to them!
Sounds a bit like deism. Check it out.
http://www.deism.com/paine.htm
Deists belive that there is a God, but he/she/it/plural is indifferent. The url is for some of Tom Paine's essays on Deism.
I'm not a deist because I think Occam's razor suggests that, given a choice between
A: There is a God
B: There is no God
B is more rational, in the absence of any other evidence.
Xev-Come not between the creationist and his pseudoscience-Bellringer
Edited by - Xev on 01/29/2002 14:21:34 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 14:29:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
[quote]I'll be honest. I'm in this phase right now...I'm currently going for agnostcism, but that the God in question is indifferent to the plight of the world,
That's Diesm alright. Agnostics cannot say what god is feeling (he's feeling indifference according to you) because the do not know if there is a god to do any feeling.
And I might hasten to point out that although Darwin's theory of natural selection did nothing to Christianity it did effectively cause Dieism to disappear by eliminating the one argument in favor of Dieism.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 14:49:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
PH Dreamer, that drives me nuts too. That's why, like you indicate, I ask why in terms of by what mechanism.
If this is what you mean by 'meaning' then my work here is done, but I read into your comments a search for purpose. Am I off base?
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I can't independently verify that I exist. As indicated in another thread, I played rugby, and so had occasion to use pain medication. This, combined with beer at the odd rugby function provided some pretty wild yet seemingly real dreams. Perhaps this current life is merely the result of another separated shoulder, some tylenol 4 and Guiness. Kind of a "Matrix" scenario, to use a pop culture reference. I really don't know and have no way to verify.
Matrix is a fabulous flick to be sure but there's an obvious parallel that most people miss. Remember this line: "There is no spoon"? This is a microcosm of the logical problem of questioning existence. If our existence is an illusion (or a series of illusions), can we believe that we don't exist? Clearly not, because that belief doesn't actually exist.
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So what if this life I lead is merely the result of a dream by a schizophrenic? Sure, this personality exists, but it's part of a single person with multiple personalities.
If you can't tell the difference, is it logical to consider there might be one?
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This is probably starting to sound pretty stupid. I'll go on with my search for faith in my own way, and not belabour this point here.
No way, this about the only chance I get to use my philosophy cortex. Please continue!
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 16:20:37 [Permalink]
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All right, then, PH Dreamer. I'll continue.
Let's go way out into left field then. I am a figment of a Tylenol 4 and Guinness induced dream of a schizophrenic, and when they wake or switch personalities, I no longer exist and neither does my world or any part of it. Does this mean that I existed? What constitutes existence? Cogito ergo sum? Is that enough, even though in the next instant there is nothing when the dream is interrupted?
Just because we're hypnotized, that don't mean we can't dance. - Tonio K. |
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digz
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 18:20:12 [Permalink]
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I kinda like the term,, Particle of Imagination,,.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 18:37:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
All right, then, PH Dreamer. I'll continue.
Let's go way out into left field then. I am a figment of a Tylenol 4 and Guinness induced dream of a schizophrenic, and when they wake or switch personalities, I no longer exist and neither does my world or any part of it. Does this mean that I existed? What constitutes existence? Cogito ergo sum?
It has to. There's no logical way to independently verify existence. Consider: in order to independently verify existence, there must be something that exists axiomatically for comparison. If we can observe an existing thing, we must also exist, since something that doesn't exist can't observe something that does.
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Is that enough, even though in the next instant there is nothing when the dream is interrupted?
I can see no other way.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob
Edited by - PhDreamer on 01/29/2002 18:37:53 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2002 : 18:41:08 [Permalink]
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What difference does it make? Are you saying every day when you wake up there's a whole different set of rules? Do you float one day, then breath mercury the next?
If so, then worry about it. Until then, you don't need faith to make gravity work. Live your life. If you want to be "better" (than what, based on what?) then do it.
quote:
All right, then, PH Dreamer. I'll continue.
Let's go way out into left field then. I am a figment of a Tylenol 4 and Guinness induced dream of a schizophrenic, and when they wake or switch personalities, I no longer exist and neither does my world or any part of it. Does this mean that I existed? What constitutes existence? Cogito ergo sum? Is that enough, even though in the next instant there is nothing when the dream is interrupted?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2002 : 07:28:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
It only takes one lookout mid-watch in the North Atlantic to realize that the Universe is much too grand to have been concieved by a mere, supreme being.[filthy]
My mid-watches were in the Pacific, but I know what you mean, filthy. A cloudless, moonless night and I was absolutely awe-struck. No one person or one philosophy has the be-all, end-all answer to the majesty of the heavens.
To answer Dr. Shari's original question, I never had an "A-HA" type of revelation, but there were two major factors that influenced my personal growth.
First, I escaped Sunday school at an early age and, instead, sang in an all boy's choir in the Episcopal church I belonged to. Church was fun. I didn't have to take it seriously. My parents sure didn't. It was a social obligation for them and a way to move seamlessly through the community with a minimum of static.
Second, my parents were involved in several foreign student programs at the local universities. My mother would lasso "homeless" foreign students from the college dorms and bring them to Sunday dinner. Speaking English was not a prerequesite, so through gestures and pantomime I was exposed to everything from Swahili to Swedish; from parlimentary government to Communism; from Animism to Shinto. My Navy experience just reinforced what I had come to accept.
"There's SOMETHING out there. I just don't know what it is. The phrase I DON'T KNOW is a perfectly legitimate answer to questions of faith."
(:raig
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2002 : 09:53:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
My mid-watches were in the Pacific, but I know what you mean, filthy.
It only takes one liberty in Olongapo to prove that there is no god.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2002 : 10:03:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
It only takes one liberty in Olongapo to prove that there is no god.
The Arm Pit of the Pacific???? Oh G-A-A-A-W-D. That place would destroy anybody's faith. Tell me how much fun I had on Shore Patrol. .
(:raig |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2002 : 15:13:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
My mid-watches were in the Pacific, but I know what you mean, filthy.
It only takes one liberty in Olongapo to prove that there is no god.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
ROTFLOL 6 weeks at Upper Mao Camp. No thanks!
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2002 : 17:37:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tell me how much fun I had on Shore Patrol..
To remain off-topic for a small bit longer: you were an SP? I may not believe in god, but I do believe in the Devil, and y'all are it! 
-me. |
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