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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2001 : 11:20:17 [Permalink]
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I've been an atheist off and on since I was a teenager. I've seen a couple of friends get sucked in by cults. The latest is a 50+ retired gentleman who thinks this Australian guy that calls himself "Jessa O' My Heart" is some kind of God-Man. He doesn't live with the cult, but he's bought thousands of dollars worth of colored water. His girl friend is into it, too. She's changed her name.
I've never talked against any of it to him. Didn't figure it'd do any good, but it has caused me to become a die-hard skeptic.
http://www.infinity-formsofyellow.com/
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 14:40:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
When did you and you and you become skeptical?
I guess I have always been a skeptic to some degree. I guess, I had the luck of growing up in an environment that was supportive of my curiosity.
Paradoxically I must attribute my becoming an atheist to my religion-Teacher at school.
Being introduced to Leibniz and his view of the theodicy problem finally gave me a way to approach religion in way I was familiar with, logic.
I find it strange that many here equate their becoming a skeptic with them "losing their religion".
- Lars
Edited by - Lars_H on 06/19/2001 14:50:20 |
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 21:42:40 [Permalink]
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I became a skeptic through involvement with friends who are intelligent, and willing to argue endlessly with me and still remain good friends. We are all educated to at least college level, but those of my friends with science backgrounds have the most reasonable minds.
Unfortunately my involvement with one of my best friends has not done the same. If its new he tries it, drugs, weird sex (nothing wrong there), ASTROLOGY, unitarianism, and so on.
He is very intelligent, and has passed through the stages above mostly unscathed, and wiser for it, but, he stated that he beleives in astrology because everything in the books he's read on the subject describe all of his closest friends perfectly.
I tried to inform him about warm readings, and astrologys general statements being easy to apply to almost anyone, but he has not pitched his beleif in it.
I'm gonna give him a copy of Shermers book and DemonHaunted World, but, I would like this August panels comments as well.
Remember he is a very good freind, blunt trauma is not an option.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 22:11:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm gonna give him a copy of Shermers book and DemonHaunted World, but, I would like this August panels comments as well.
I assume by Shermer's book you mean "Why People Believe Weird Things". Excellent book. He covers a nice wide range of the claptrap some folks view as the truth.
"Demon Haunted World" is of course a must read.
If your friend ever gets into a "free energy" kick, I'd recommend Bob Park's "Voodoo Science". I think he also covers medical quacks.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 10:14:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Quite a shock going from Baptist to Episcopal. They were so lax, to the point of being ridiculous. I just started realizing that these people weren't here to worship, it was just that thing they did on Sundays before lunch.
Well, Tokyodreamer, I'm one of those Episcopalians who added the word "brunch" to the American lexicon. But for me, church was a pre-cursor to the Browns game at Cleveland Municipal Stadium. We prayed for victory, of course, especially against the Heathen Pittsburgh Steelers. :)
I grew up in a rather liberal family, so skepticism was part of the growth process. But there were some rather remarkable people who kept me on the "wondering" as opposed to "wandering" path.
8th grade American History teacher who gave me a "D" on a report 'cause I didn't use 3 independent reference sources. "That's not critical analysis, Mr. Miller."
High school European History teacher who stated on the first day, "if you read the text book and ace all the tests, I'll give you a "C". If you want an "A", you'll form study groups, go to the library and include bibliographies with the papers you hand in."
My Episcopal parish priest who had an incredible historical grasp of the "Jesus era" and told me stories that never made it to the Big Book. (and would have gotten him fired) His goal was not to debunk everything in Christian history but for me to gain an appreciation that "They were doing the best they could with what they had. And sometimes they fell flat on their ass."
A Catholic priest, who, when I asked him about the historical Jesus, gave me the name of an Italian Communist writer who approached the subject from a very dispassionate viewpoint.
The Vietnam War which shattered any lingering doubts about "truth, justice, and the American way".
Am I bitter or angry? Nah. But I am a fan of P.T. Barnum. I'm along for the ride. Someone else can do the driving. I like to look out the window and take in the scenery as it goes by. That includes stars, mountains and people or all shapes, colors and nationalities who are in my line of sight.
(:raig
Rape, Pillage, THEN Burn. [Mongolian Hoards Handbook] |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 10:46:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
My Episcopal parish priest who had an incredible historical grasp of the "Jesus era" and told me stories that never made it to the Big Book. (and would have gotten him fired)
I've been collecting stories of Jesus' childhood that were popular in the middle ages. My favorite is when the kids of Nazareth won't play with him because during a ball game he struck one of the opposing team dead. They tell his mom on him. Mary had to demand that he bring his playmate back to life and not damn anyone in the neighborhood--or no supper for you young man. quote:
A Catholic priest, who, when I asked him about the historical Jesus, gave me the name of an Italian Communist writer who approached the subject from a very dispassionate viewpoint.
In 36 years of looking I have never been able to find anything about a "historical" Jesus. What with the entire story already existing in one form or another, long before Jesus was supposed to have lived, I had stopped looking. What is this reference? I'd love to see it.
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 13:27:35 [Permalink]
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I've always been a skeptic, and sometimes a good-natured fraud because of it.
Raised a good Catholic in good Catholic schools (my mother is still the church organist). Noted all the doctrinal discrepancies and silly notions that all the semi-thinking people see without much trouble, then saw how people swallowed it whole anyway.
Got into magic and realized how much people WANT to be fooled and how little they want to think. An interest in history and the subsequent studying/research backed this up. Everyone wants a surface answer to deep-bottom problems.
As something of a jokester I began responding in various ways to questions about my magic performances. "I learned this particular effect in a monastery in Tibet. Had to spend six winters living in a cave before they let me inside--then it was twelve more years before they showed my the first secret of universal peace." Mind you, I was in my early twenties spouting this nonsense and people were say "Wow. That's deep. You've lived a great life."
Simultaneous with that was a normal interest in science (nothing spectacular; I'm not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination), a normal interest in sociology and language, and an intense interest in theater, which provided more insight into how people try very hard to believe. It's amazing how often after I'd portrayed a bad guy on stage people I'd known for a long time would come up to me and say "I didn't know you were mean like that." And they were sincere about it. They could not distinguish the fiction of theater from reality.
So I slowly determined not to fall victim to that.
The next major step was the world of Military Intelligence, investigative duties in the military and as a civilian, and the enlightening that brought. Whenever I train new security officers or investigators, the first thing I tell them is this inviolate rule: "The first story is always wrong." They invariably laugh, and then I repeat it. "The first story is always wrong. If I come to you tomorrow--and remember, I'm your boss and your trainer--and I tell you that I was just mugged in the parking lot by three tall teenagers wearing black and riding Harleys, then you damn well better investigate it knowing full well that it was probably one 60 year old lady in white driving a Cadillac."
My religious journey that eventually culminated in atheism was the final step.
Now I know little about lots but know that I know only little. And I'm skeptical about everything.
My kids still love me. |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 14:34:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
In 36 years of looking I have never been able to find anything about a "historical" Jesus. What with the entire story already existing in one form or another, long before Jesus was supposed to have lived, I had stopped looking. What is this reference? I'd love to see it.
Hi Slater,
Nothing quite so esoteric, I'm afraid. The Italian Communist in question simply used the same source material found in the Vatican archives, essentialy the Synoptic Gospels, and expounded his Marxist rhetoric.
The Catholic priest was trying to demonstrate how two people can read the same text and one will find the Divine and one will find the Profane.
"And the person who found the Profane?"
"Why, he was burned at the stake of course".
At which point the priest would burst into fits of laughter. My introduction to gallows humor.
BTW - being an Episcopalian, I always got a hoot out of explaining what that was.
"Well, the Episcopal church came from the Anglican Chruch. And that started when Henry VIII wanted to get in Anne Boleyn's skirts. The Pope said no, so Henry appointed his own Archbishop of Cantebury who said yes. Essentially, our church was founded on LUST.
And people would give me queer looks and walk away.
(:raig
Rape, Pillage, THEN Burn. [Mongolian Hoards Handbook] |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 15:04:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nothing quite so esoteric, I'm afraid. The Italian Communist in question simply used the same source material found in the Vatican archives, essentialy the Synoptic Gospels, and expounded his Marxist rhetoric.
Ah well, that's disappointing.
The problem with the Synoptic Gospels is they are the same story that you find in the Zend Avesta with parts of the Dionysian rites thrown in for flavoring.
It's like if I told you about what I did on my summer vacation and you recognized the plot lines from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and "Pigs in Space" vous would not tend to believe that moi was telling you about an actual historic event.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 19:57:25 [Permalink]
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I was raised in a small southern town as a church going Presbyterian. My
journey away from organized religion was gradual but I recall three events
that served as major signposts along the way. The first occurred when a
girl at my church told the minister's wife she wanted to be a preacher.
The minister's wife informed her that girls don't' become preachers because
the Bible forbids it. Even as a boy, I thought that pretty much
sucked. If someone feels called to be a preacher, what difference should
gender make?
The second event occurred a few years later when I watched two parishioners
stand in a Sunday school room and make a rather tasteless joke about
"coons". If you're familiar with southern redneck vernacular, you
understand that they weren't referring to small furry mammals with ringed
tails. I may have been borne and raised in the South but I never bought
into the bigotry thing and I was quite perturbed to see professed
christians speaking in such an ugly manner about fellow human beings - in a
church of all places.
By the time I got to college, I had pretty much had my fill of my church
but I still hadn't given up on God. I became involved with a christian
group called Maranatha. Now these were hard core christians: full body
baptism, speaking in tongues, the works. I figured if I was ever going to
find God, these were the people to show me the way. For the best part of
two semesters, I went to their meetings, prayed with them, sang with them,
and tried very hard to get filled with the Holy Spirit. But some how the
certainty I sought eluded me.
Finally, one of the members announced that they were going to have a guest
preacher at the next meeting who was powerfully anointed by God. I came to
the meeting determined that this time I would finally get filled with the
Holy Spirit. It turns out that our guest wasn't just a preacher,
he was a genuine miracle worker, a faith healer.
We all prayed and after the prayer was done he told us that while we were
praying, he had seen the spirit descending like a white fog over us. I
glanced up hoping to glimpse this wonder but saw only the roof. Next he
informed us that God was going to show us a genuine miracle. He told us
that one of the congregation was having back problems. But God had
revealed to him the real problem. One of this poor guy's legs was shorter
than the other and he was going to fix it. I didn't get to see the actual
miracle because so many people crowded around to witness it that I couldn't
get close enough. I did however see the face of the healed man shortly
after the miracle, and what struck me was that as someone who had just been
healed of a physical deformity he didn't seem particularly ecstatic. In
fact, he was rather subdued...even troubled. It wasn't until several years
later that I read an article about James Randi in which he described this
very miracle and explained exactly how it's done. At that time though, I
had never heard of James Randi. All I knew was what I saw - and something just
wasn't adding up.
Still, when the preacher began laying hands on the congregation and people fell
back, slain with the Holy Spirit, I was in the line. My turn came and I
closed my eyes and I prayed and he prayed and I prayed some more and he prayed some
more and suddenly I was filled with a strange sensation. But it wasn't the
Holy Spirit, it was a sudden keen awareness of just how ridiculous the
whole situation felt. And I suddenly wanted very much to be anywhere but
there. I fell back, not because I was slain by the Holy Spirit but
because I wanted out and I simply didn't have the gumption to just walk
away. It wasn't exactly my proudest moment, but I learned the lesson I needed to
learn. I was done with Maranatha and with religion in general. And I had become
a good deal more skeptical.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2001 : 01:14:27 [Permalink]
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[quote: Boron10] For me, it was quite the opposite. My Dad has been a skeptic as long as I can remember, and I wanted to be like him.[/quote]
You make your Dad proud Boron.
As for me, you can read about my skeptic conversion, if you can call it that, at: http://www.skepticfriends.org/kil_evil.html
The Evil Skeptic
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2001 : 04:12:19 [Permalink]
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I have to admit I've never really equated being a skeptic with being non-religious. This may have to do with my rather strange religious background. This may suprise everyone but I was raised a Christian Scientist and still have strong sympathies towards that sect. It has to be one of the most misunderstood christian sects there are. The "no medicine" thing is really kind of a misunderstanding (even some Christian Sceintists don't understand that it is not that big of a deal). My folks, and all the Christian Scientists I know, believe very strongly that until a child is 18 and can make up his own mind, you take them to the doctor.
I almost think you have to be raised a Christian Scientist to understand this. They feel that there is a spirtual world and a material world and one has very little to do with the other. This in fact, made my 'conversion' to skepticism really almost natural. When I heard claims of faith healing and the such (which is NOT really a Christian Science thing, you pray to heal the spirtual self, not the material self) I automaticaly had problems with it.
The main problem I have with Christian Science is almost a disdain for the material world, if you get sick and die, you get sick and die, the material world isn't what is important, the spirtual world is. I, very early on, was very interested in science and thought that the 'material world' was just too damn interesting to have this attitude. Which is also probably why I'm so damn confused with it comes to a belief in God. I'm not exactly an agnostic, but i'm not exactly NOT one either, if that makes any sense :) I feel that religion is a very personal thing anyways, and should stay out of the schools, government and so on.
My main skeptical belief is that pseudoscience is a BAD thing. My dad was a big fan of Rod Sterling (the Twilight Zone guy) and watched those "Chariots of the Gods" and "Berumada Triangle" shows on TV that Sterling nararated. I was about 8 or so, and those shows scared the hell out of me. I started reading about those subjects and soon found out, to my dismay, that Van Daniken was lying about a great many things. He was really the first adult that "lied" to me and I've never really forgiven him for that, lol. I guess that's why I have such a huge problem with Hoagland. He's lying to a great many people and I can't help to think he KNOWS that.
I have to say my parents were great, and always supported me in being a free thinker. My father never really believed entirely in evolution, for example, but never really told me it was a bad thing either. (He could understand how a giraffe could evolve a long neck, for example, but not how a single cell organism could evolve into man without some kind of 'help'). My leanings towards a belief in a seperate material and spirtiual world actually helps this, if there is a God I really don't think he cares a brass razoo what evolved. In that regard I almost have a diest point of view too.
So for me, being a skeptic was more an anti-pseudo science thing then a anti-religious thing. I've been a skeptic since I was 8 and never really been anything else.
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2001 : 23:07:47 [Permalink]
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it seems that many people dont want to have to think about life's contradictions. they becone fundis or some other kind of absolutists so that they can see in black and white.
It's much easier for me to believe in no god than the vicious, vengeful, blood-thirsty creature described in the bible. Getting drafted during the viet nam war helped me get over any excess respect for authority.
comrade billyboy |
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The Bad Astronomer
Skeptic Friend
137 Posts |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 02:07:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now I've seen everything. Witnessing for skepticism! ;-)
Well Phil, that's sort of yes and no. Except for Megan and a few co-workers, I personally know very few skeptics. A person who is religious and goes to church connects with people with like ideologies every week. What face-to-face resources does a skeptic have? It's especially hard for the skeptic who is also an atheist or agnostic. (I think there might be a few on this board ) Being a skeptic when fundies are pretty much running the country is tough. This gives us a chance to connect, talk and share experiences. It gives us the chance to talk to others who are like minded.
Have any of you out there ever had to pay lip service to religion for one reason or another?
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done
Edited by - Lisa on 06/29/2001 02:09:09 |
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