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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2002 : 09:41:04
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Creationist demands that the Big Bang theory and the great age of the universe be excluded from school curricula have become common in recent years. In response, the American Astronomical Society and the Astronomical Society of the Pacific have produced an article for teachers that presents the evidence for the great age of the universe: http://www.astrosociety.org/education/publications/tnl/56/
There is a critical need for this kind of resource. I have found, unfortunately, that many public school teachers, including some who allegedly specialize in science, lack an adequate grasp of this subject. I have heard teachers tell their students things that clearly originate in creationist propaganda rather than in professional or scientific resources. For example, I heard a high school teacher tell his students that alleged problems with radiocarbon dating make it impossible to date rocks precisely. Of course, radiocarbon testing has nothing to do with dating rocks. The claim that it does is fairly widespread among creationists, in defiance of information to the contrary that is available almost anywhere. This is one of the many reasons that I see creationists as willfully dishonest rather than simply misinformed or ignorant.
Abducting UFOs and conspiring against conspiracy theorists since 1980.
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2002 : 23:42:14 [Permalink]
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From what I have seen creationist demand that pretty much all of astronomy and physics be removed from science classes. They don't like our current model of the universe where distant and ancient galaxies exists and the speed of light is constant. But they have nothing to replace it with. With Biological evoultion they have at least some sort of alternate model to explain our current observations.
Creationist propaganda that touches astronomy mostly does not even know the difference between Galaxy and Solar-System. What would they want to be thought about astronomy?
The article is nice. I just have a problem with the way they are trying to explain the meaning of "evolution" in a astronomiacl context. They are right of course. But using such terminology is playing right into the hands of creationists who have conspiracy theories of how darwinism is the reason that totally unconnected brances of science also do not agree with the scriptur.
The part about science and religion could have been put differently, too.
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 00:28:57 [Permalink]
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I agree that it's nice to have such informational resources, but unfortunately, it's not a problem that could be dealt with using reasoning… I don't think it's willful dishonesty, as you understandably suggest- at least not in their mind- it's more a matter of intentional ignorance. To put it facetiously, creationists openly admit that if their faith dictated that the Moon were made of green cheese, they'd force themselves to ignore any and all scientific evidence to the contrary- regardless of what their education and reasoning had to say about the matter. Bizarrely, many such creationists are more than intelligent and educated enough to "know better," so it seems an intractable problem(???) You can lead a horse to water…
Ron White |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 04:10:22 [Permalink]
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[quote]You can lead a horse to water…
[/quote]
but you can't make him think?
My kids still love me. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 07:00:06 [Permalink]
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[quote]
From what I have seen creationist demand that pretty much all of astronomy and physics be removed from science classes. They don't like our current model of the universe where distant and ancient galaxies exists and the speed of light is constant. But they have nothing to replace it with. With Biological evoultion they have at least some sort of alternate model to explain our current observations.
[/quote]
Actually, they don't even have that. Look closely at the Intelligent Design 'movement.' Even Dembski & Behe, arguably the two most scholarly and polished IDers, have thousands of pages criticizing Darwinian evolution but not a single publication describing a model, mathematical or otherwise, of how creation might have taken place. That's why it will never be science. It has no explanatory power whatsoever because the explanatory inference doesn't exist. 'This thing is irreducibly complex therefore a creator exists that creates things' is the only fruit of the whole ID thing and it furthers our knowledge precisely zero.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 09:47:24 [Permalink]
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I agree with PhDreamer. Saying that all that evolution and science stuff is too complicated to understand so God musta done it is no theory.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 13:06:26 [Permalink]
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It seems to me that creationists are merely people who fear what they don't understand, so they must resort to saying that it is their way or no way at all.
Reminds me more of spoiled children than adults.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 20:29:10 [Permalink]
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I really feel sorry for creationists. They miss out on the greatest pleasure of all: *The pleasure of finding things out.* (Richard Feynman)
True believers are a sad bunch. Then again, they are also very dangerous. All of them have the potential to turn into monsters (like the Taliban).
ljbrs 
"Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error." Goethe |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 21:00:02 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the link Piltdown. I'm sending it around to other boards and instructor friends.
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 18:30:51 [Permalink]
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I must agree with ljbrs, that creationists are dangerous.
I'm fortunate to live in a country where state and church a separated to such an extend, that if our Primeminister said "God Bless Denmark", we'd drop our jaws.
And we did loose our jaws, when we heard that states in the US teach creation as a theory equal to evolution.
To a European it's amazing, that there are still people around who claim the Earth and everything in the Universe is only 7000 years old. It's the 21st Century after all.
Why is this possible?
"In my opinion, nothing occurs contrary to nature except the impossible, and that never occurs." Galileo Galilei |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 18:56:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
To a European it's amazing, that there are still people around who claim the Earth and everything in the Universe is only 7000 years old. It's the 21st Century after all.
Why is this possible?
"In my opinion, nothing occurs contrary to nature except the impossible, and that never occurs." Galileo Galilei
Because (IMO) the people who believe this gained some organisation and political saavy. They formed voting blocks when no one was looking. Look at Kansas. When the people saw who had been elected for school boards, the average apathetic voter got off its butt and unelected them.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 18:57:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm fortunate to live in a country where state and church a separated to such an extend, that if our Primeminister said "God Bless Denmark", we'd drop our jaws.
Seperation of Church and state in Denmark?
I thought you had even something in your constitution suppoting the national church.
But you are right even if religion and state are not sperated formally in europe most coutries here tend to sperate religious from political aspects here in practice far more then it is done in the US.
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 17:51:27 [Permalink]
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There is a "national church", Lars H, but the church certainly doesn't dictate school curriculae! Sure, we still have left-overs from the feudal ages. We have a queen and a royal guard. And a church.
That was not reeaally the point. Imagine a German Christian sect having the power to dictate what should be taught in the schools?
It blows my mind that a religion, for which there is absolutely no evidence, can force its belief on an educational system.
I thought the debate over how the Earth was formed, how life evolved, how the universe was formed and so on was clear.
I thank the above user for trying to answer my question.
"In my opinion, nothing occurs contrary to nature except the impossible, and that never occurs." Galileo Galilei |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 03:19:27 [Permalink]
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I never meant to imply that the National church in denmark has much influence in practice. It is just that you can hardly call having a state church seperation of state and church.
quote:
Imagine a German Christian sect having the power to dictate what should be taught in the schools?
Actually there are two such sects the catholic church and the protestants. German Schools have a subject called Religion. It is the only subject that is constituionelly guaranteed. Luckyly neither of the two confessions that are tought in school offically accept creationism.
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 09:29:35 [Permalink]
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Lars H>> You know. Church and state IS separated in Denmark. It's in the Danish constitution. The school-subject "Christianity" has been replaced by "Religion", which is about all major world faiths.
So church and state are two separate entities. Again, it was not the point. One thing is to have "national religions", which are usually a historical and/or cultural trait. It's something completely different when the national religion decides to impose its faith as scientif truths.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
-Albert Einstein |
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Wolfgang_faust
Skeptic Friend
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 14:39:06 [Permalink]
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This is a topic that creationist won't give up. You have to understand that creation has to be true for there religion to work. Just as much as Jesus had to be a real person and everything that the Bible says he did has to be true. If it isn't true then their belief system falls apart and suddenly they don't know what will happen when they die. It is fear that motivates them to continue with their beliefs. Of course, that is just my opinion. However, I was deeply entrenched in that belief system for 20 something years. So I feel ok saying that. Just a little bit on how Christains think.
Add value to every day, Sharpen your skills, your understanding |
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