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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 09/19/2008 : 13:07:07 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| You said "This from the forum where most jumped for glee like grade school children out on recess when the death of Henry Morris was announced" as if it were true. It is not true (neither the "most" part or the "jumped for glee" part). You either lied or you misremembered, let's see: |
Oh good grief! When I said they "jumped for glee" I did not mean they physically jumped for glee. I mean that they mocked and ridiculed him, which they did.
As usual, Dave likes to start a game of semantics.
| Yet nobody in that thread "jumped for glee like grade school children out on recess." The fact that you're trying to move the goalposts makes it clear that your initial statement was a deliberate lie, Bill, and you are compounding the lie by trying to cover it up. Otherwise, you would simply have said, "I remembered it differently, sorry." |
But "jumped for glee like grade school children out on recess" is just a phrase and it's only your opinion that the comments made do not comply enough with the phrase "jumping for glee like grade school children" or that they were "out at recess". Just more semantics is all.
| Yup, the freethinkers are into transparency, while Christians try to cover up their faults. |
More semantics. The Bible teaches to confess your sins.
| As I said, he's being told he's going to Hell. Why else pray for him? |
Any unsaved person would be told they are going to hell. You seem to get hung up with the false logic that Christians are homophobic because they tell unrepentant homosexuals they are going to hell. I could see your concern if it was only the homosexuals who got this message. But the Christian prospective is that all unrepentant people are going to hell whether they are gay or straight, black or white, Jew or Gentile.
| Yes, "I am praying for you" means "you're going to Hell." |
Nope. I'll straight out say it. Any unrepentant person, gay or straight, black or white, jew or gentile is going to hell. There is no reason to hide that fact behind a "I am praying for you."
"I am praying for you" says that I CARE about your eternal destiny.
| The fact that a whole chorus of Christians on another forum have passed judgement upon Boltz is not a good thing, Bill. |
As if a whole forum of atheists and agnostics passing judgments on Morris is a good thing?
Oh my yes the horror of the big intermediating Christian forum whom have called for others to pray for Ray Bolz. Except for we all know "pray for you" is just code for "this poor bastard is going straight to hell and I will be their to sign the final judgment."
Do the semantics ever end?
| Christian hypocrisy is more of a blight on society than atheists who are just being human. |
I would agree. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 09/19/2008 13:16:47 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 13:12:23 [Permalink]
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Well, that one made me smile…
Bill Scott:
…you mocked Morris's death and that is a fact. You said "One down..." as if you have mercenaries out there with a list. One down and X amount more to go... |
It was a rather passive remark really. True, I had no respect for Morris when he was alive, and in death, well, at least in death he isn't using up any more oxygen.
| If you want to say that I exaggerated your glee then you are allowed your own opinion. |
Thanks!
Bill Scott:
But then you take exaggerated and turn it into lie becuase I can't prove that you physically jumped for glee?!?!?! |
I understood the metaphor. “Glee” implies that I was really happy that he died. But really, he didn't matter enough to me to wish him dead. I don't wish any conman dead with the possible exception of killers like Kevin Trudeau or Sylvia Brown. And even then, I would rather see them incarcerated for life.
Yeah, my comment was mildly mocking. I'll give you that. What I won't give you is that my lack of mourning for the passing of a conman compares with the fundamentalist Christian treatment of Gay people for outright cruelty. Go ahead and pray for him. Just maybe he will return to the fold and live out his life in misery…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 13:46:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Oh good grief! When I said they "jumped for glee" I did not mean they physically jumped for glee. |
I never said nor implied that you did. You're trying to distract from your ridiculous statement by starting a silly semantic game.| I mean that they mocked and ridiculed him, which they did. |
Even metaphorically, mocking and ridiculing someone is nowhere close to "jumped for glee." One is cruelty, the other is care-free happiness. People who are cruel are hardly ever care-free about it.| As usual, Dave likes to start a game of semantics. |
And now we have the standard projection.| More semantics. The Bible teaches to confess your sins. |
To whom?| Any unsaved person would be told they are going to hell. |
Yes, and it's cruel... I suppose Christians who pray are jumping for glee.| You seem to get hung up with the false logic that Christians are homophobic because they tell unrepentant homosexuals they are going to hell. I could see your concern if it was only the homosexuals who got this message. But the Christian prospective is that all unrepentant people are going to hell whether they are gay or straight, black or white, Jew or Gentile. |
Homophobic? When did that enter into the discussion? No, Christians are mean, nasty people for trying to bully others, whatever their alleged "faults."Nope. I'll straight out say it. Any unrepentant person, gay or straight, black or white, jew or gentile is going to hell. There is no reason to hide that fact behind a "I am praying for you."
"I am praying for you" says that I CARE about your eternal destiny. |
If you did, you'd do more than pray.| As if a whole forum of atheists and agnostics passing judgments on Morris is a good thing? |
You keep forgetting that atheists are not commanded to not judge others, Bill. This is about hypocrisy.Oh my yes the horror of the big intermediating Christian forum whom have called for others to pray for Ray Bolz. Except for we all know "pray for you" is just code for "this poor bastard is going straight to hell and I will be their to sign the final judgment."
Do the semantics ever end? |
Your strawmen apparently never do.| Christian hypocrisy is more of a blight on society than atheists who are just being human. |
I would agree. |
Then why do you continue with it, Bill? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 14:36:49 [Permalink]
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There are not just a few people jumping for glee over the death of someone else. For some time, Westboro Baptist had kept a counter going as to how many days Matthew Shepard was in Hell.
I will admit that when Fred Phelps gets his scungy, old ass kicked off the face of the world, I'll tip a glass of the expensive stuff in a good-riddance celebration. The species has enough tribulations in normal times without vicious slime like he & his family, et al, adding to them. Then I would be "jumping with glee," or would be if I were capable of jumping.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 15:47:58 [Permalink]
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If The Reverend Phelps were stuck down by lightening on a clear blue sky day, I would be so happy that I would seriously re-consider the existence of an All-Loving God who cares about us puny mortals. I would also pity him, but grieve, not so much.
These kinds of signs were good enough for the OT God, so hey, a man can dream, no? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/19/2008 15:48:51 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 05:54:06 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
Originally posted by Bill scott
Oh good grief! When I said they "jumped for glee" I did not mean they physically jumped for glee. |
I never said nor implied that you did. You're trying to distract from your ridiculous statement by starting a silly semantic game. |
When I said "jumped for glee" my meaning was they were rather pleased with the news, which was obvious by the context.
We just disagree to what level they displayed their obvious pleasure but the fact remains that they did display pleasure.
Which makes your "lying scumbag" charge just more of your usual theatrics and semantic productions.
| I mean that they mocked and ridiculed him, which they did. |
Even metaphorically, mocking and ridiculing someone is nowhere close to "jumped for glee." One is cruelty, the other is care-free happiness. People who are cruel are hardly ever care-free about it. |
Again, "jumped for glee" is an obvious metaphor used on a internet forum to show that they were rather pleased, which they were. So, because this "pleased" them they felt it was perfectly acceptable to mock him at his death. This is not even debatable. The only thing we have to debate is to what level of metaphor was their display of pleasure worthy of.
The trouble here is your trying to bog the discussion down in a game of semantics.
| Any unsaved person would be told they are going to hell. |
Yes, and it's cruel... |
Cruel? It's not cruel to warn someone of certain demise and then to not only warn them but show them the way out as well. In fact that is the exact opposite of cruel and is compassion.
| I suppose Christians who pray are jumping for glee. |
Some might. I suppose it all depends on the context of what they are currently praying for.
| Homophobic? When did that enter into the discussion? |
The last post.
| No, Christians are mean, nasty people for trying to bully others, whatever their alleged "faults." |
More semantics. Warning someone of a believed certain demise and showing them the way out does not equal bullying others.
You just accuse ALL Christians of being mean, nasty, bullies because you are an intolerant bigot towards Christians.
Sure I could find a minority of those who call themselves Christian who may bully others but, on the same token I could find a percentage of skeptical atheists who bully others just as easy, so that is a moot argument.
| "I am praying for you" says that I CARE about your eternal destiny. |
If you did, you'd do more than pray. |
Where did I say that prayer is all you/I do?
| As if a whole forum of atheists and agnostics passing judgments on Morris is a good thing? |
You keep forgetting that atheists are not commanded to not judge others, Bill. This is about hypocrisy. |
The Bible says we are not to judge hypocritically but we are to judge. We all judge. By you judging me for being judgmental you have in fact made judgment on me.
If I call someone who killed in cold blood a murder and ask for justice I have made a judgment on that person.
The women had been judged for her act of adultery and was guilty. We know this because Christ told her to "go and sin no more". But before this he warned the crowd of judging with the wrong motives and hypocritically when he told the them that "he who is without sin may cast the first stone".
Do the semantics ever end? |
Your strawmen apparently never do. |
Look fellow, in just the last two posts alone you have accused all Christians of being mean, nasty, bullies who's code for "your going straight to hell with no chance of redemption" is "I will pray for you". Can you finally yet see why I accuse you of wallowing in semantics like a pig in mud?
| Christian hypocrisy is more of a blight on society than atheists who are just being human. |
I would agree. |
Then why do you continue with it, Bill? |
Because I am still in the flesh.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2008 : 06:35:47 [Permalink]
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*ahem*:
Sorry, couldn't resist.... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 06:48:44 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by H. Humbert |
| Did Bolz ever publicly deny that he was gay? If not, then we can drop the claim that he "lied" about his sexuality. Bill might be upset that Bolz didn't volunteer that information about himself, but we in civilized society understand that sexual orientation is a personal matter, and choosing not to discuss one's private life is not the same as lying. |
I said that Boltz would have been lying to his family.
So based on your logic if my wife finds out that I had been having sexual encounters with other women the whole time we have been married all I have to do is point out that I had never once told my wife that I was not out having affairs and then she could not accuse me of being dishonest. Sheeeze...
Let me take a guess here, your not married, are you, HH?
| The fact that Bolz was a member of a community that largely shuns gays probably contributed to his reluctance to come out of the closet publically, certainly. |
Well dah! If a high profile life long atheist suddenly decides there must be creator of the universe but still wants to hold his/her position as a high profile atheist then he/she should expect to be shunned, to some degree, by the atheist community.
If that same high profile atheist was to hide the fact for 20 years that they now believed in a creator while maintaining the high profile atheist position then I don't think it would be an extreme position at all to say that the person had been living a lie to one degree or another.
| Despite bill ludicrous insinuations, Bolz was, and remains, fully Christian. He did not lie about who he was. He is now openly gay and Christian. It is possible to be both. |
That's your opinion which you are entitled to. It is my opinion that this is as ludicrous as the life long high profile atheist who has come out and says he now believes in a supreme creator but he wants to remain a high profile atheist in his public and private life.
| The fact that bill's tiny brain cannot process such a position does not mean that it doesn't exist. |
Which is HH's code for "anybody not agreeing with me verbatim is a dumbass."
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 09/23/2008 06:52:20 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 07:08:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
*ahem*:
Sorry, couldn't resist....
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Of course I could replace "prayer" with "has 10,000 plus posts on backwoods web forum" and the joke is just as funny from my perspective. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 07:39:04 [Permalink]
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Bill Scott:
It is my opinion that this is as ludicrous as the life long high profile atheist who has come out and says he now believes in a supreme creator but he wants to remain a high profile atheist in his public and private life. |
Apples and oranges. By definition, a person is not an atheist if he believes in a supreme creator. You can't be a theist and an atheist at the same time. But whether or not a gay Christian is still a Christian seems to be up to biblical interpretation. And there does seem to be some disagreement among Christians about that. Clearly, not all Christians take the hardline view that Bolz can not also be a Christian if he is gay.
You're analogy is false.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 08:24:18 [Permalink]
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| Apples and oranges. By definition, a person is not an atheist if he believes in a supreme creator. You can't be a theist and an atheist at the same time. But whether or not a gay Christian is still a Christian seems to be up to biblical interpretation. And there does seem to be some disagreement among Christians about that. Clearly, not all Christians take the hardline view that Bolz can not also be a Christian if he is gay. |
But they are in a small minority. In a group the size of those who claim to be Christian I am sure you can find a minority that believes whatever you want the topic of the day to be. I am sure if you look hard enough you can find a "Christians for Satan" minority group. The fact remains that the majority of Christians would agree that open homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle choice while professing to be born again. The vast majority of Christians hold the position that a openly gay Christian is as oxymoronic as a born-again atheist.
Only if you take the minority view point that open homosexuality is compatible with Christian proclamations. But again you can find a minority group for just about any irony that you care to bring up. I would not be surprised at all if a group of "born-again atheists" were to be found. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 08:39:08 [Permalink]
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Of course I could replace "prayer" with "has 10,000 plus posts on backwoods web forum" and the joke is just as funny from my perspective. |
Yes, but I am functioning in reality, not in a wishful dreaming of whatever pleases or offends me.
And who says it's a joke?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 08:46:57 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by filthy |
| Yes, but I am functioning in reality, not in a wishful dreaming of whatever pleases or offends me. |
Are you?
| And who says it's a joke? |
I did.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 08:57:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Only if you take the minority view point that open homosexuality is compatible with Christian proclamations. But again you can find a minority group for just about any irony that you care to bring up.
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list of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality
This list by denomination demonstrates that there is a wide range of view on Gays and their participation and acceptance as Christians. It also demonstrates that there is an ongoing debate among Christians themselves. Note that most of these denominations are not out on the fringe. Unless you consider Methodists and Christian denominations, some very old and established ones, fringe groups.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 09:26:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So based on your logic if my wife finds out that I had been having sexual encounters with other women the whole time we have been married all I have to do is point out that I had never once told my wife that I was not out having affairs and then she could not accuse me of being dishonest. Sheeeze... |
What does being in a committed relationship have to do with opening up about your intimate sexual feelings with other family members? Were you compelled to tell your parents every time you had a sexual thought? Every time you masturbated? Those would be more analogous. Was not telling your father that you just rubbed one out in the bathroom to the Macy's uncatalogued a "lie," Bill?
Cheating in a committed relationship--gay or straight--just isn't comparable. You don't even have an argument here. And stop using phrases like "based on your logic" when it's clear your couldn't follow a logical argument if your life depended on it. You are stupid, stupid man who argues on the basis of ignorance and raw emotion. It's painful to watch you try to convince yourself that you are making sense.
Kil has already nicely dealt with the rest of your blather. Except this one bit:| The fact that bill's tiny brain cannot process such a position does not mean that it doesn't exist. |
Which is HH's code for "anybody not agreeing with me verbatim is a dumbass." |
No, it's code for "Once again, bill, your denial of reality does not mean that it goes away."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Xian singer Ray Bolz admits he's gay.
