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Bob Lloyd
Skeptic Friend
Spain
59 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2009 : 08:53:14 [Permalink]
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| Well, that's still government, in that in a democracy the people are the government. |
In a representative democracy, the people are not the government because they elect representatives to make the decisions. It's a popular misconception. Often when governments do the job they are elected to do, the people object because they are not doing what they personally want - which ironically is precisely why we have elected representatives in the first place.
The plebiscite overruling the permitting of minarets is very reactionary and retrogressive because it is deliberately discriminatory, preying on the xenophobic fears of a culturally defensive society. The principled response should surely be to object to the encroachment of religion into public life. By all means have buildings in which to perform religious rituals but be consistent in what is permitted. If churches can ring bells, then muslim minarets can broadcast calls to prayer. If the latter is not acceptable, then neither is the former.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2009 : 08:57:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening. At this point, I rather doubt that it will. Be nice if it did though; reaffirmation of Christian charity, and all that. |
(Emphasis above mine) Considering the Catholics' stance on jews during WW2 (didn't we have a picture somewhere on that) and considering that Islaam is even farther removed from Jesus and Christianity than the Jews, I'm surprised the Catholic Church didn't co-sponsor the anti-minaret law. 
Ah, religionists... What will they do next?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2009 : 16:52:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening. At this point, I rather doubt that it will. Be nice if it did though; reaffirmation of Christian charity, and all that. |
(Emphasis above mine) Considering the Catholics' stance on jews during WW2 (didn't we have a picture somewhere on that) and considering that Islaam is even farther removed from Jesus and Christianity than the Jews, I'm surprised the Catholic Church didn't co-sponsor the anti-minaret law.
Ah, religionists... What will they do next?
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I put up a priest/Nazi picture in another thread a little while ago.
The minaret nonsense has now reached it's thinly-veiled threat stage of metamorphosis.
IRAN: Outrage, and a warning, over Swiss vote to ban minarets
An East-West clash over a Swiss referendum last week banning the construction of mosque minarets heated up today as Iran's foreign minister warned of unspecified "consequences" if the ban were enforced.
Manouchehr Mottaki spoke on the phone with his Swiss counterpart Micheline Calmy-Rey. Switzerland and Iran generally have good relations. The Swiss serve as Washington's representative in the Iranian capital in the absence of formal relations between America and the Islamic Republic, giving them exalted status in Tehran's diplomatic circles.
But Mottaki had harsh words for Switzerland, saying enforcement of the ban on new minarets was “against the prestige of a country which claims to be an advocate of democracy and human rights" and would "damage Switzerland’s image as a pioneer of respecting human rights among Muslims' public opinion," according to a report by the official Islamic Republic News Agency, or IRNA.
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If all goes according to to the natural progression of these things, it will soon pupate into it's Danish cartoon phase and flutter away on the wings of bad, late-night jokes on the toob.
I dunno if the Swiss'll cave on this or not, but historically, they were some of the most bad-ass mercenaries in the world. Their reputation was such that they were hired to protect the Vatican, a position they still hold.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2009 : 17:13:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Their reputation was such that they were hired to protect the Vatican, a position they still hold. |
Isn't that the military equivalent of being a mall cop?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2009 : 18:32:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by filthy
Their reputation was such that they were hired to protect the Vatican, a position they still hold. |
Isn't that the military equivalent of being a mall cop?
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It might be now, but back in the day, when the Church was at it's foulest, they were needed. And if you were a king and wanted to rip off a neighboring country, you hired the Swiss to bolster your troop strength. Beside those guys, the Blackwater clown show is a bunch of wimps.
Their history is a very good read.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 07:37:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening.
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Perhaps if you were operating on something beyond prejudiced reflex you would have come across information such as ...
| Catholic bishops oppose a minaret ban. A statement from the Swiss Bishops Conference said that a ban would hinder interreligious dialogue and added that the construction and operation of minarets were already regulated by Swiss building codes. The statement requested that "the initiative to be rejected is based on our Christian values and the democratic principles in our country." The official journal of the Catholic Church in Switzerland publishes a series of articles on the minaret controversy. The Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches holds that the popular initiative is not about minarets, but is rather an expression of the initiators’ concern and fear of Islam. It views a minaret ban as a wrong approach to overcome such objections. The Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities are also against any ban on building minarets. Says Dr Herbert Winter, the president of the Federation: “As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagogues or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.” Many other religious organisations find the idea of a complete minaret ban as lamentable. These are: the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland; the Swiss Evangelical Alliance; the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland; the Covenant of Swiss Baptists; the Salvation Army; the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland; the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland; and the Anglican Church in Switzerland. source |
It took me all of about 20 seconds to find the above. You see what you want to see: willful ignorance is not an attractive trait. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 07:45:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening. |
Perhaps if you were operating on something beyond prejudiced reflex you would have come across information such as ...
[snip]
It took me all of about 20 seconds to find the above. You see what you want to see: willful ignorance is not an attractive trait. |
Unfortunately, 80% of the Swiss voters see things differently than the leadership of those organizations. All Christians should have voted against the ban. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 08:11:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening.
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Perhaps if you were operating on something beyond prejudiced reflex you would have come across information such as ...
| Catholic bishops oppose a minaret ban. A statement from the Swiss Bishops Conference said that a ban would hinder interreligious dialogue and added that the construction and operation of minarets were already regulated by Swiss building codes. The statement requested that "the initiative to be rejected is based on our Christian values and the democratic principles in our country." The official journal of the Catholic Church in Switzerland publishes a series of articles on the minaret controversy. The Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches holds that the popular initiative is not about minarets, but is rather an expression of the initiators’ concern and fear of Islam. It views a minaret ban as a wrong approach to overcome such objections. The Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities are also against any ban on building minarets. Says Dr Herbert Winter, the president of the Federation: “As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagogues or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.” Many other religious organisations find the idea of a complete minaret ban as lamentable. These are: the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland; the Swiss Evangelical Alliance; the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland; the Covenant of Swiss Baptists; the Salvation Army; the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland; the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland; and the Anglican Church in Switzerland. source |
It took me all of about 20 seconds to find the above. You see what you want to see: willful ignorance is not an attractive trait.
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Link please.
Actually, I came across something similar last night but didn't get around to posting it. And as Dave has pointed out, it's not all that important due to evident popular demand.
But you are correct in thinking that I get some satisfaction from any incident where some religion, especially a major one, gets stepped on, especially by another major faith. I do because I believe that religions, all of them, are the greatest evil any species could inflict upon itself. History bears that out and even today vicious abuses are carried out in the name of some god or other, usually, but not always, an Abrahamic one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 11:40:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ah, religionists... What will they do next?
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I put up a priest/Nazi picture in another thread a little while ago. |
That's the one I was referring to.
The minaret nonsense has now reached it's thinly-veiled threat stage of metamorphosis.
IRAN: Outrage, and a warning, over Swiss vote to ban minarets
An East-West clash over a Swiss referendum last week banning the construction of mosque minarets heated up today as Iran's foreign minister warned of unspecified "consequences" if the ban were enforced. |
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Yeah, yeah...
The Iranians can bitch and moan to their hearts' content.
While we're on the subject of building places of worship... How many Christian churches is currently being built in countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or Egypt?
Egyptian Muslim Council says 'No' to churches by fatwa.
But then, who ever expected them to be reasonable?
| If all goes according to to the natural progression of these things, it will soon pupate into it's Danish cartoon phase and flutter away on the wings of bad, late-night jokes on the toob. |
Hey, I like those cartoons. They are great as satire on fanatic Islamic faith.
An artist in Sweden also landed in hot water with the Swedish Muslim community for making unflattering sculptures of bearded Arabic men. How they even made the leap to thinking the sculptures was of their prophet Muhammed must be simple projection.
Either way, it gives me a perfect opportunity to rile against religion when discussing with my coworkers.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 16:56:52 [Permalink]
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Whoops, my mistake. 57.5% of Swiss voters voted for the ban. I think that 80% figure came from something unrelated I was reading at the time.
Since Switzerland is 77.5% Christian, then we can say that at most, 45% of Christians voted against the ban (assuming that every non-Christian, including all Muslims, voted for it). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 19:08:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening.
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Perhaps if you were operating on something beyond prejudiced reflex you would have come across information such as ...
| Catholic bishops oppose a minaret ban. A statement from the Swiss Bishops Conference said that a ban would hinder interreligious dialogue and added that the construction and operation of minarets were already regulated by Swiss building codes. The statement requested that "the initiative to be rejected is based on our Christian values and the democratic principles in our country." The official journal of the Catholic Church in Switzerland publishes a series of articles on the minaret controversy. The Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches holds that the popular initiative is not about minarets, but is rather an expression of the initiators’ concern and fear of Islam. It views a minaret ban as a wrong approach to overcome such objections. The Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities are also against any ban on building minarets. Says Dr Herbert Winter, the president of the Federation: “As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagogues or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.” Many other religious organisations find the idea of a complete minaret ban as lamentable. These are: the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland; the Swiss Evangelical Alliance; the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland; the Covenant of Swiss Baptists; the Salvation Army; the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland; the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland; and the Anglican Church in Switzerland. source |
It took me all of about 20 seconds to find the above. You see what you want to see: willful ignorance is not an attractive trait.
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Link please. |
The link is clearly indicated ...  |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 19:23:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
... we can say that at most, 45% of Christians voted against the ban (assuming that every non-Christian, including all Muslims, voted for it).
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We can also say that the majority of Swiss white adults voted for the ban. Therefore? |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 19:55:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
We can also say that the majority of Swiss white adults voted for the ban. Therefore?
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Therefore the majority of Swiss white adults should be ashamed of themselves. Do you agree?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 21:44:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
We can also say that the majority of Swiss white adults voted for the ban. Therefore? |
Therefore, the Swiss Bishops Conference, the Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches, the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland, the Swiss Evangelical Alliance, the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland, the Covenant of Swiss Baptists, the Salvation Army, the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland, the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland and the Anglican Church in Switzerland all seemed to have failed, each to some unknown extent, to notify their members that the minaret ban was a bad idea. The shepherds aren't doing such a good job of guiding their flocks in matters of morality. So who cares what these groups say about the ban if their guidance is ignored or rejected? They obviously do not speak for Christians if more than 55% of Christians voted in contradiction to "Christian values."
In other words, the press releases of these groups are not reflective of Christians in general rising "in defense of their Islamic cousins." The effort to enact this "reprehensible" amendment seems to have been started by a Christian and found majority Christian support. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 02:54:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening.
|
Perhaps if you were operating on something beyond prejudiced reflex you would have come across information such as ...
| Catholic bishops oppose a minaret ban. A statement from the Swiss Bishops Conference said that a ban would hinder interreligious dialogue and added that the construction and operation of minarets were already regulated by Swiss building codes. The statement requested that "the initiative to be rejected is based on our Christian values and the democratic principles in our country." The official journal of the Catholic Church in Switzerland publishes a series of articles on the minaret controversy. The Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches holds that the popular initiative is not about minarets, but is rather an expression of the initiators’ concern and fear of Islam. It views a minaret ban as a wrong approach to overcome such objections. The Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities are also against any ban on building minarets. Says Dr Herbert Winter, the president of the Federation: “As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagogues or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.” Many other religious organisations find the idea of a complete minaret ban as lamentable. These are: the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland; the Swiss Evangelical Alliance; the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland; the Covenant of Swiss Baptists; the Salvation Army; the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland; the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland; and the Anglican Church in Switzerland. source |
It took me all of about 20 seconds to find the above. You see what you want to see: willful ignorance is not an attractive trait.
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Link please. |
The link is clearly indicated ...
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Missed that. Sorry. Eyes ain't what they used to be.
But why are you being so snotty? Do I detect a little atheist prejudice, hmm?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Swiss Ban Building of Minarets
