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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2010 : 20:15:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Fripp
Hey Dave W, just curious. How many posts do I have to make before I become a Skeptic Regular? 500? 1000? |
It's 500. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/29/2010 : 03:33:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Fripp
Hey Dave W, just curious. How many posts do I have to make before I become a Skeptic Regular? 500? 1000? |
It's 500.
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At 1,000, you get a key to the executive head.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 03:51:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
At 1,000, you get a key to the executive head.
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Cool. The executives will be quite upset after my first visit and its aftermath. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 13:44:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Fripp
I find it very interesting that cantbe hasn't responded to R Wreck's post regarding the bone marrow med.
Cantbe, R Wreck engaged you directly in a forthright and respectful manner and presented a topic with copious facts. How come you haven't blown away his viewpoint with your devastating, "true skeptic" intellect?
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Cantbe, I would appreciate an answer. You have complained of people questioning your qualifications and, and of something about "gotcha's". I have given you an opportunity to discuss how your original post
| When you buy a prescription drug, nowhere on the bottle do you find any guarantee that it will work for you, only ingredients and instructions, and other than aspirin, the effect you expect may or may not occur. The reason pseudodoctors get away with it is the buyers have their own self doubts, didn't do it right, had the wrong attitude, etc. |
applies in the case of Neupogen administered to bone marrow stem cell donors.
Again I ask, if this medication is ineffective, then why would a doctor prescribe it for a person who is not suffering from a disease? The donor has no need for the medication to work. In fact, the donor can be subject to negative side affects. There's nothing in it for him that he can't get without the drug, if the effect, as you claim, may or may not occur.
What is your take on this?
(-edited to fix quote formatting) |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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| Edited by - R.Wreck on 01/31/2010 13:46:37 |
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cantbe323
Suspended
242 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 14:48:36 [Permalink]
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[quote]When you buy a prescription drug, nowhere on the bottle do you find any guarantee that it will work for you, only ingredients and instructions, and other than aspirin, the effect you expect may or may not occur. The reason pseudodoctors get away with it is the buyers have their own self doubts, didn't do it right, had the wrong attitude, etc.
Again I ask, if this medication is ineffective, then why would a doctor prescribe it for a person who is not suffering from a disease? The donor has no need for the medication to work. In fact, the donor can be subject to negative side affects. There's nothing in it for him that he can't get without the drug, if the effect, as you claim, may or may not occur.
What is your take on this? >>
It isn't about possible bad effects. It's about blind trust and blind faith in doctors and the medicine they prescribe.
cantbe323
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 15:18:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by cantbe323
It isn't about possible bad effects. It's about blind trust and blind faith in doctors and the medicine they prescribe.
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It isn't blind trust. It is the realization that they have an expertise and knowledge greater than my own regarding medical issues. This combined with the realization that while the scientific knowledge on medicines we have is not perfect, science is the best way we have of gathering knowledge. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 15:26:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by cantbe323
[quote]When you buy a prescription drug, nowhere on the bottle do you find any guarantee that it will work for you, only ingredients and instructions, and other than aspirin, the effect you expect may or may not occur. The reason pseudodoctors get away with it is the buyers have their own self doubts, didn't do it right, had the wrong attitude, etc.
Again I ask, if this medication is ineffective, then why would a doctor prescribe it for a person who is not suffering from a disease? The donor has no need for the medication to work. In fact, the donor can be subject to negative side affects. There's nothing in it for him that he can't get without the drug, if the effect, as you claim, may or may not occur.
What is your take on this? >>
It isn't about possible bad effects. It's about blind trust and blind faith in doctors and the medicine they prescribe.
cantbe323
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Are you suggesting that we should not take any prescription drugs? That there are no effective medications available?
Specifically, are you claiming that Neupogen does not increase the production of bone marrow stem cells? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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| Edited by - R.Wreck on 01/31/2010 15:28:14 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 17:38:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by cantbe323
It's about blind trust and blind faith in doctors and the medicine they prescribe. |
So if my car breaks, and I take it to a shop to have it fixed, does that mean I have blind trust and blind faith in my mechanic and the car parts he uses? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 18:41:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by cantbe323
It's about blind trust and blind faith in doctors and the medicine they prescribe. |
So if my car breaks, and I take it to a shop to have it fixed, does that mean I have blind trust and blind faith in my mechanic and the car parts he uses?
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Which is the point I was driving at here. Unfortunately, cantbe and his attention deficit disorder don't seem to be up to the discussion.
While we certainly owe it to ourselves to be educated consumers, in our highly technological society it is impossible to be sufficiently expert in every field which touches our lives. None of us has the time or resources to verify everything that could affect our safety. If we want to enjoy the convenience of modern existence, we must have trust in a legion of strangers. Every day we trust that the milk we pour on our cereal won't kill us; that the wheels won't fall off the car or the gas tank won't rupture on the way to work. We trust the elevator won't plummet ten stories and that the building we work in won't collapse. When we vacation we trust that the plane will not spontaneously disintegrate and that the pilot won't fly it into the ground. We trust that the builders of our homes (and the building inspectors) were sufficiently competent that the house won't burn down due to a short in faulty wiring or explode due to a gas leak. Occasionally we pay for that trust with our lives. The question you need to ask yourself is if the benefits of our society outweigh the risks. I think that for most of us they do. If you think otherwise, good luck to you living off the land somewhere in the wilderness.
Medicine is no different. You can get opinions from other doctors, you can do some research yourself, but in the end you either get yourself a medical degree or you trust your doctor to prescribe the proper treatment. I think the results of evidence based medicine in terms of increasing life expectancy, and the quality of life for many with what were, not that long ago, fatal diseases, speaks for itself.
I know that anecdotal evidence counts for little. But for what it's worth, I have a brother who is alive today only because his leukemia was able to be treated via a bone marrow transplant, and that a pharmaceutical product, Neupogen, contributed to the success of that treatment. And my brother is by no means alone. This treatment is widely used and has been shown to be effective.
So when dolts like cantbe show up here and pontificate incoherently about things they know absolutely nothing about (and shame the Engineering profession while doing so), I take it a little personally. So get your head out of your ass, cantbe. If you cantbe bothered to do a little research, if you cantbe bothered to back up your assertions, then I cantbe convinced to take you seriously. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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cantbe323
Suspended
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 12:29:47 [Permalink]
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It's about blind trust and blind faith in doctors and the medicine they prescribe. cantbe323 >>
So if my car breaks, and I take it to a shop to have it fixed, does that mean I have blind trust and blind faith in my mechanic and the car parts he uses? >>
I'd say it depends on how much you know about cars, wouldn't you?
cantbe323 |
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cantbe323
Suspended
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 12:37:39 [Permalink]
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While we certainly owe it to ourselves to be educated consumers, in our highly technological society it is impossible to be sufficiently expert in every field which touches our lives. None of us has the time or resources to verify everything that could affect our safety. If we want to enjoy the convenience of modern existence, we must have trust in a legion of strangers. Every day we trust that the milk we pour on our cereal won't kill us; that the wheels won't fall off the car or the gas tank won't rupture on the way to work. We trust the elevator won't plummet ten stories and that the building we work in won't collapse. When we vacation we trust that the plane will not spontaneously disintegrate and that the pilot won't fly it into the ground. We trust that the builders of our homes (and the building inspectors) were sufficiently competent that the house won't burn down due to a short in faulty wiring or explode due to a gas leak. Occasionally we pay for that trust with our lives. >>>
Thanks... That was what I was trying to say in my own clumsy way. Can I hire you as an interpretator.
cantbe323 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 13:22:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by cantbe323
I'd say it depends on how much you know about cars, wouldn't you? |
No, as R.Wreck noted, we have professional licensing, inspectors and other such measures in place so that auto mechanics, home builders, plumbers, civil engineers, etc. generally meet some standards of competence. This is a far cry from "blind faith." Simply by picking a company that is "licensed and bonded" over one that is not, we remove the word "blind" from whatever trust we have to invest in an outside expert.
Besides, if all I knew was that my mechanic has been in business for 20+ years, I could be pretty sure that he's not a total screw-up. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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cantbe323
Suspended
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 15:32:17 [Permalink]
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I'd say it depends on how much you know about cars, wouldn't you? Cantbe323>>
No, as R.Wreck noted, we have professional licensing, inspectors and other such measures in place so that auto mechanics, home builders, plumbers, civil engineers, etc. generally meet some standards of competence. This is a far cry from "blind faith." >>
When you hire a person to do a job you can't do, all you can do is hope he doesn't screw it up, and hope in that context is just another way of saying blind faith.
cantbe323 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 15:49:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by cantbe323
When you hire a person to do a job you can't do, all you can do is hope he doesn't screw it up... |
This is utterly ridiculous.| ...and hope in that context is just another way of saying blind faith. |
That's only true in the context you have provided, in which a vigilant and educated consumer of services is no better off than a guy who picks a contractor by throwing a dart at a phone book page. I reject that context, and so reject your conclusion.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 18:42:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by cantbe323
While we certainly owe it to ourselves to be educated consumers, in our highly technological society it is impossible to be sufficiently expert in every field which touches our lives. None of us has the time or resources to verify everything that could affect our safety. If we want to enjoy the convenience of modern existence, we must have trust in a legion of strangers. Every day we trust that the milk we pour on our cereal won't kill us; that the wheels won't fall off the car or the gas tank won't rupture on the way to work. We trust the elevator won't plummet ten stories and that the building we work in won't collapse. When we vacation we trust that the plane will not spontaneously disintegrate and that the pilot won't fly it into the ground. We trust that the builders of our homes (and the building inspectors) were sufficiently competent that the house won't burn down due to a short in faulty wiring or explode due to a gas leak. Occasionally we pay for that trust with our lives. >>>
Thanks... That was what I was trying to say in my own clumsy way. Can I hire you as an interpretator.
cantbe323
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No, what you said was:
| When you buy a prescription drug, nowhere on the bottle do you find any guarantee that it will work for you, only ingredients and instructions, and other than aspirin, the effect you expect may or may not occur. The reason pseudodoctors get away with it is the buyers have their own self doubts, didn't do it right, had the wrong attitude, etc. |
As Dave pointed out, there is a difference between blind faith and conditional trust in a trained, licensed professional. I wouldn't ask a plumber to treat a disease any more than I would ask a doctor to fix my plumbing. In all the examples I gave there is some code or law designed to ensure that the person providing the service has the required level of competence to get the desired result, realizing that human beings are fallible and that despite our best efforts mistakes happen. The reality, and rarity, of the mistakes are by no means sound reasons to claim that availing oneself of the services of these professionals amounts to blind faith. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Blind faith in drugs
