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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 13:30:05 [Permalink]
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[I suggest that you respond to this post.]
I missed that post.
First, the pics of the children are from Belsen, not Dachau. But, no matter.
[o, Rudolfo, here are your choices. You can either admit that you don't know enough about the pictures to allow them to "fuel your skepticism" ]
Wait a minute. You don't even know where the pictures were taken. Let's see if you admit your mistake. You'll have to watch the Frontline video to see the film the pics were pulled from. It is a good documentary. However, it was shelved and not shown for sixty years. See if you can figure out why.
These are pictures of healthy children in the camps, Belsen or Dachau no difference. I don't know what the International Committee is, but according to the post they somehow monitored the children. Good for them.
All this flatly contradicts the holocaust narrative which states that the Nazis attempted to exterminate all European Jews. According to that narrative, the women and children, unable to work, were transported to death camps and exterminated on arrival. They were not sent to camps where they were monitored by the International Committee, and well fed and educated.
Now, let's see if you are honest enough to admit that.
[Oh, and going out and looking for support because I pointed out an inconsistency in your posts, does not erase-erase the fact that you went ahead and proclaimed what you did not know to be a fact, as a fact.]
I did know it to be a fact as I had read it, but I didn't keep the link. So, I went searching and found two, not too good, but adequate. I still don't have a good idea of the percentages, but there were a lot of Jews in the camps at the end of the war. To imply that there were not is ... well ...
[Admitting your mistake might help, however...]
Well, I did miss that post, and it contained info I wasn't aware of, but that info strengthens my argument, it doesn't weaken it as you seem to think .... |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/25/2010 13:32:56 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 14:00:55 [Permalink]
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Well I wrote a little report on Rudolfo's Rorschach, but, there doesn't seem to be to much appreciation for humor here, so I'll skip it.
I'll just say that if you believe the photo was of people walking to a gas chamber, given that there is not a shred of evidence for that allegation, well, I'd hate to be on trial and see you on the jury. You'll believe any accusation without evidence, on the voice of authority, I suppose. You are deluding yourself if you think you even understand what skepticism is.
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| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/25/2010 14:02:15 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/25/2010 : 14:11:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
These are pictures of healthy children in the camps, Belsen or Dachau no difference. |
Neither Belsen nor Dachau were death camps, so it makes a ton of difference which camp they were in.| I don't know what the International Committee is, but according to the post they somehow monitored the children. Good for them. |
You've never heard of the International Committee of the Red Cross?| All this flatly contradicts the holocaust narrative which states that the Nazis attempted to exterminate all European Jews. |
Again, only if the narrative says that the Nazis succeeded, which they did not.| According to that narrative, the women and children, unable to work, were transported to death camps and exterminated on arrival. They were not sent to camps where they were monitored by the International Committee, and well fed and educated. |
You should read your own sources, then. The link you provided flatly contradicts what you're claiming "the Holocaust narrative" to say.| Now, let's see if you are honest enough to admit that. |
Ditto.
The death camps were involved in the mass murder of the Polish Jews. Dachau wasn't one of them. Dachau held political prisoners, criminals and laborers. To deny this is to make a straw-man version of the "Holocaust narrative." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 14:59:10 [Permalink]
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Rudolfo:
I missed that post. |
Hmmmm…
First, the pics of the children are from Belsen, not Dachau. But, no matter. |
Yes. No matter.
me:
Rudolfo, here are your choices. You can either admit that you don't know enough about the pictures to allow them to "fuel your skepticism" |
Rudolfo:
Wait a minute. You don't even know where the pictures were taken. |
Doesn’t matter. Either way they weren't taken at an extermination camp.
Rudolfo:
Let's see if you admit your mistake. You'll have to watch the Frontline video to see the film the pics were pulled from. It is a good documentary. However, it was shelved and not shown for sixty years. See if you can figure out why. |
What mistake have I made? Where did I claim knowledge of what the photo’s represent? Where did I come to a conclusion and call it a fact after saying that it’s only a belief?
Rudolfo:
These are pictures of healthy children in the camps, Belsen or Dachau no difference. I don't know what the International Committee is, but according to the post they somehow monitored the children. Good for them. |
You are correct that it doesn’t matter if it’s Belsen or Dachau. Funny that you don't know what the International Committee is. The same protection of child prisoners by adult prisoners could have taken place in either camp. And that, among other things, calls into question what you think the photo’s represent, does it not?
Rudolfo:
All this flatly contradicts the holocaust narrative which states that the Nazis attempted to exterminate all European Jews. According to that narrative, the women and children, unable to work, were transported to death camps and exterminated on arrival. They were not sent to camps where they were monitored by the International Committee, and well fed and educated. |
Where is the logic in the above quote? If they were healthy when captured, and kept healthy in the camp, why, using your argument, would they have been sent to a death camp? And you know, you still haven't established that the kids in the picture were Jews. But even so...
Rudolfo:
Now, let's see if you are honest enough to admit that. |
I’m honest enough to say that I don’t know what the pictures mean with any amount of certainty, and neither do you. But here’s the thing. I’m not using them or trying to turn them into something that they might be, and then claiming what I believe them to be is a fact, and you are. All I’m doing is demonstrating that there is sufficient reason to doubt your conclusion. You are the one making a claim to a fact. And you're doing so on the flimsiest of evidence.
Me:
Oh, and going out and looking for support because I pointed out an inconsistency in your posts, does not erase-erase the fact that you went ahead and proclaimed what you did not know to be a fact, as a fact. |
Rudoflo:
I did know it to be a fact as I had read it, but I didn't keep the link. |
That isn’t how you presented it. What you said was “I believe.”
Rudolfo:
So, I went searching and found two, not too good, but adequate. I still don't have a good idea of the percentages, but there were a lot of Jews in the camps at the end of the war. To imply that there were not is ... well ... |
Who said that Jews didn’t survive? We all know that many Jews survived. That doesn’t mean that the murders didn’t take place. What the hell kind of reasoning is that? That just means the final solution failed. Germany lost the war, remember?
But hey, this might be a good time for you to explain to me what all those Jews were doing in all of those camps? What was the Nazi plan for them? Remember, many of those Jews were citizens of Germany and Austria and not at war with their own country. So why were they gathered up and thrown in those camps? What was their crime other than being Jewish? And don’t try to weasel out of this question because it’s directly relevant to what became the Nazi’s intentions, unless the Nazi’s didn’t formulate a plan, somewhere along the way.
Me:
Admitting your mistake might help, however... |
Rudolfo:
Well, I did miss that post, and it contained info I wasn't aware of, but that info strengthens my argument, it doesn't weaken it as you seem to think .... |
Earth calling Rudolfo. It’s in writing in this thread. I quoted your mistake and it won’t go away. If you still don't understand what your mistake is, I can't help you. So there you have it.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 15:28:48 [Permalink]
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Just for the hell of it: Himmler's speech at Posen, occupied Poland.
"Excerpts (with .wav audio clips and text) from the speech given by Heinrich Himmler to about 100 SS Group Leaders in Posen, occupied Poland. Also available in Real Audio
"It is absolutely wrong to project our own harmless soul with its deep feelings, our kindheartedness, our idealism, upon alien peoples. This is true, beginning with Herder, who must have been drunk when he wrote the Voices Of The Peoples, thereby bringing such immeasurable suffering and misery upon us who came after him. This is true, beginning with the Czechs and Slovenes, to whom we brought their sense of nationhood. They themselves were incapable of it, but we invented it for them.
One principle must be absolute for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal and friendly to members of our blood and to no one else. What happens to the Russians, what happens to the Czechs, is a matter of utter indifference to me. Such good blood of our own kind as there may be among the nations we shall acquire for ourselves, if necessary by taking away the children and bringing them up among us.
Whether the other races live in comfort or perish of hunger interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; apart from that it does not interest me. Whether or not 10,000 Russian women collapse from exhaustion while digging a tank ditch interests me only in so far as the tank ditch is completed for Germany. Hear Himmler say this in German .wav 208K
We shall never be rough or heartless where it is not necessary; that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude to animals, will also adopt a decent attitude to these human animals, Hear Himmler say this in German .wav 143K
(continued) but it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and to bring them ideals.
I shall speak to you here with all frankness of a very serious subject. We shall now discuss it absolutely openly among ourselves, nevertheless we shall never speak of it in public. I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race.
It is one of those things which is easy to say. 'The Jewish race is to be exterminated,' says every party member. 'That's clear, it's part of our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, right, we'll do it.' Hear Himmler say this in German .wav 112K
And then they all come along, the eighty million good Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are swine, but this one is a first-class Jew. Of all those who talk like this, not one has watched, not one has stood up to it.
Most of you know what it means to see a hundred corpses lying together, five hundred, or a thousand. To have gone through this and yet - apart from a few exceptions, examples of human weakness - to have remained decent fellows, this is what has made us hard. This is a glorious page in our history that has never been written and shall never be written, Hear Himmler say this in German .wav 290K
Original transcript in German of the above text.
(continued) for we know how difficult we should have made it for ourselves, if - with the bombing raids, the burdens and the depravations of war - we still had Jews today in every town as secret saboteurs, agitators and trouble-mongers. We would now probably have reached the 1916/17 stage when Jews were still in the national body.
We have taken from them what wealth they had. I have issued a strict order, which SS-Obergruppenführer Pohl has carried out, that this wealth should, as a matter of course, be handed over to the Reich without reserve.
We had the moral right, we had the duty to our people, to destroy this people which wanted to destroy us.
Altogether, however, we can say, that we have fulfilled this most difficult duty for the love of our people. And our spirit, our soul, our character has not suffered injury from it."
Heinrich Himmler - October 4, 1943
A page from Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech showing the term "Judenevakuierung" meaning evacuation of the Jews."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 16:04:27 [Permalink]
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Rudolfo:
You are deluding yourself if you think you even understand what skepticism is. |
As I mentioned before, everyone who comes here with a ridiculous conspiracy theory tells us the same thing. So do you also think that we didn't go to the moon? Or does that claim seem silly to you? The moon hoax theorists say we lack skepticism as well. So that's the company that you have put yourself in, again.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 16:40:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Well I wrote a little report on Rudolfo's Rorschach, but, there doesn't seem to be to much appreciation for humor here, so I'll skip it.
I'll just say that if you believe the photo was of people walking to a gas chamber, given that there is not a shred of evidence for that allegation, well, I'd hate to be on trial and see you on the jury. You'll believe any accusation without evidence, on the voice of authority, I suppose. You are deluding yourself if you think you even understand what skepticism is. |
Huh. This sounds like a kiss-off, guys.
And the "not a shred of evidence" comment blew up my irony meter. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 06:27:16 [Permalink]
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[And the "not a shred of evidence" comment blew up my irony meter.]
Get a new meter, the old one was already kaput. There is not a shred of evidence that the photo represents anything other than people walking along a road. So, if you have any evidence let's see it.
I've given some thought to this topic, the photo, and the responses to it. It is amazing to me that none of you can see that this photo is an obvious fraud. I mean, it's OBVIOUS. There is NO evidence. No argument is needed whatever. Etc. This is what I think at gut level.
Yet, it apparently is not true. You do 'believe' the photo.
So, let's do just a bit of analysis on it.
There are a couple of points to be made ...
1. The photographer took this photo of people walking to a gas chamber. So, where is the photo showing the gas chamber? Where is the photo showing them walking into the gas chamber? Any photographer would have taken those photos as well if the people were walking into a gas chamber. Yet, there are no such photos. Just a photo of people walking on a road. The only time in history people have been killed in gas chambers, and the photographer just takes a photo of them walking on the road and walks away. It's preposterous. The fact that there are no photos showing them walking into the gas chamber proves that the photo is a hoax.
Suppose I told you the photo was of people walking to see an alien spacecraft that had just landed. You would then say with eager anticipation, "ok. wow, let's see the photo of the spacecraft and of the people entering it". If I didn't have such a photo your common sense would tell you that the photo of them walking on the road was just that, and that my claim that they were going to see a spacecraft was total nonsense.
2. These people are walking to their certain death. Now, clearly they are unaware of this impending doom. We have no idea where the photo was taken, but let's assume Auschwitz. At Auschwitz they were supposedly killing 10,000 Jews PER DAY. (That's the figure that's usually given for Treblinka as well). Yet these people didn't have a clue. At the same time, there was a Hollywood production written by screenwriter Ben Hecht, that played the major cities in the US in 1943, showing the extermination of the Jews in the camps. So, we knew in Hollywood, NY, LA, DC, etc., 5000 miles from the scene, that the Jews were being exterminated in the camps, but the Jews themselves, just a few steps away from the gas chamber, didn't have a clue. This is beyond preposterous.
Thus, there is not a shred of evidence supporting the claim that the people are walking to a gas chamber, and there are compelling reasons for believing that they are not walking to a gas chamber.
So, it's clear to me that if you can actually 'argue' that the photos are legit, then your critical faculties are non-existent and/or you have some sort of inculcated belief system that makes rational analysis impossible.
I've seen it in people I know, so I do recognize it as a real phenomenon. But the people I know do not get on the internet and argue, that is, they don't take an active interest, so it's not quite the same thing.
In short, I am baffled. If something this obvious is not apparent to you, what sense is there in cataloging the various obvious lies in the holocaust narrative. If one as absurd as the photos is not apparent, then there is no hope.
So, I'd like to focus on the photo. Not that it answers everything, but because if you can't evaluate it for what it is, then you can't evaluate anything, for reasons I do not understand.
So,
1. what is the evidence supporting the claim that the photo shows people walking to a gas chamber?
2. why don't we see a photo of them entering the gas chamber?
3. how is it possible that they did not have a clue that they were to be gassed?
4. where are the Nazis or sonderkommandos directing them to the gas chamber?
5. why do you believe they are going to a gas chamber?
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| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/26/2010 06:29:41 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 07:14:52 [Permalink]
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Something interesting:
Documents of Auschwitz death camp doctors found
By MONIKA SCISLOWSKA (AP) – 3 days ago
WARSAW, Poland — Food coupons for some of the notorious Nazi doctors at the Auschwitz death camp — including perhaps the sadistic Dr. Joseph Mengele — have been found in the attic of a nearby house, where they had lain unseen for decades.
Also found in the attic were other documents relating to the lives of Nazi officials, including death certificates and a map.
Some sugar coupons bear the names of Horst Fischer and Fritz Klein, doctors who were executed for their crimes after the war, Adam Cyra, a historian at the Auschwitz memorial museum who is looking through the documents, said Monday.
"The sensational value of this discovery is in the fact that these original documents, bearing the names of main murderers from Auschwitz, were found so many years after the war," Cyra said.
Cyra said he believes a June 1943 coupon for a small amount of sugar probably was assigned to Dr. Joseph Mengele, who was infamous for his sadistic experiments, but the writing is unclear.
A February 1944 coupon for 0.28 kilograms of butter is made out for a Dr. Mergerle. There was no SS doctor by that name at camp, so Cyra believes a clerk misspelled Mengele's name.
Doctors and pharmacists at the camp conducted pseudo-medical experiments on the inmates and helped select Jews arriving at the camp for either labor or death. Mengele escaped after World War II and evaded capture for the rest of his life.
The documents — almost 300 in total — were found in the attic of a house being renovated in the town of Oswiecim, where the Nazis built the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 07:17:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[And the "not a shred of evidence" comment blew up my irony meter.]
Get a new meter, the old one was already kaput. There is not a shred of evidence that the photo represents anything other than people walking along a road. So, if you have any evidence let's see it. |
Good grief. I already said that it's not evidence. Never has been.| I've given some thought to this topic, the photo, and the responses to it. It is amazing to me that none of you can see that this photo is an obvious fraud. I mean, it's OBVIOUS. |
I just don't see how you get from "it's not evidence" (and it isn't) to "it's fraud." If I showed you a picture of my kid, would you claim that it's fraud because the photo doesn't include the results of a paternity test?| There is NO evidence. No argument is needed whatever. Etc. This is what I think at gut level. |
Ah, you're one of those George W. Bush-style gut-thinkers. This is a skeptical site. Gut thinking isn't allowed.| Yet, it apparently is not true. You do 'believe' the photo. |
I see no reason not to "believe" the caption. It's an unremarkable claim. But it's still not evidence.So, let's do just a bit of analysis on it.
There are a couple of points to be made ...
1. The photographer took this photo of people walking to a gas chamber. So, where is the photo showing the gas chamber? Where is the photo showing them walking into the gas chamber? Any photographer would have taken those photos as well if the people were walking into a gas chamber. Yet, there are no such photos. Just a photo of people walking on a road. The only time in history people have been killed in gas chambers... |
Except for you showing us a gas chamber in Baltimore.| ...and the photographer just takes a photo of them walking on the road and walks away. It's preposterous. The fact that there are no photos showing them walking into the gas chamber proves that the photo is a hoax. |
No, it means that the photo isn't evidence. That's not the same as the photo being a hoax.| Suppose I told you the photo was of people walking to see an alien spacecraft that had just landed. You would then say with eager anticipation, "ok. wow, let's see the photo of the spacecraft and of the people entering it". If I didn't have such a photo your common sense would tell you that the photo of them walking on the road was just that, and that my claim that they were going to see a spacecraft was total nonsense. |
Yes, if there were no other evidence that there were alien spacecraft landing, you'd be correct. But there is plenty of evidence for the Holocaust, it's just that that particular photo is not part of it. It's being used to illustrate the narrative, not to prove that the narrative is correct. That you can't figure out the difference is stunning, but I guess that's what happens when you think with your gut instead of your brain.| 2. These people are walking to their certain death. Now, clearly they are unaware of this impending doom. We have no idea where the photo was taken, but let's assume Auschwitz. At Auschwitz they were supposedly killing 10,000 Jews PER DAY. (That's the figure that's usually given for Treblinka as well). Yet these people didn't have a clue. At the same time, there was a Hollywood production written by screenwriter Ben Hecht, that played the major cities in the US in 1943, showing the extermination of the Jews in the camps. So, we knew in Hollywood, NY, LA, DC, etc., 5000 miles from the scene, that the Jews were being exterminated in the camps, but the Jews themselves, just a few steps away from the gas chamber, didn't have a clue. This is beyond preposterous. |
How many Hollywood movies were shown in Nazi Germany during the War, Rudolfo? The idea that all Jews had access to information just because of their proximity is ludicrous.| Thus, there is not a shred of evidence supporting the claim that the people are walking to a gas chamber, and there are compelling reasons for believing that they are not walking to a gas chamber. |
Compelling to you, but you think that museum exhibits are supposed to be "proof" of what they're displaying, so we all know that your grip on reality is fragile.| So, it's clear to me that if you can actually 'argue' that the photos are legit, then your critical faculties are non-existent and/or you have some sort of inculcated belief system that makes rational analysis impossible. |
That's right. If we don't agree with your really lousy arguments and gut thinking, it's our rationality that's questionable.| I've seen it in people I know, so I do recognize it as a real phenomenon. But the people I know do not get on the internet and argue, that is, they don't take an active interest, so it's not quite the same thing. |
You came to us, not the other way around.| In short, I am baffled. If something this obvious is not apparent to you, what sense is there in cataloging the various obvious lies in the holocaust narrative. If one as absurd as the photos is not apparent, then there is no hope. |
The absurdity is all yours.| So, I'd like to focus on the photo. |
That's your main problem. Focusing on one thing to the exclusion of all the other evidence is not a good way to begin. The truth of historical propositions rests upon the confluence of all the evidence. Trying to reduce the problem to any one specific item will almost always fail. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 10:58:02 [Permalink]
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Some of this will be a repeat of what Dave has posted above. But I wrote this reply while his reply was being posted. I did some editing because of that, but hey...
I note that once again, rudolfo didn’t respond to my posts. Okay, moving on…
Rudolfo:
I've given some thought to this topic, the photo, and the responses to it. It is amazing to me that none of you can see that this photo is an obvious fraud. I mean, it's OBVIOUS. There is NO evidence. No argument is needed whatever. Etc. This is what I think at gut level. |
How do you get from our agreement that it’s not evidence to it’s an obvious fraud? And here we go again with your beliefs. No doubt your “gut feeling” will very soon become an indisputable fact in your mind. You just keep making the same error in logic even after the error has been repeatedly pointed out to you.
Rudolfo:
Yet, it apparently is not true. You do 'believe' the photo. |
Why don’t you go back and see what we really said instead of making shit up?
Rudolfo:
So, let's do just a bit of analysis on it. |
Based on your gut feeling.
Rudolfo:
The photographer took this photo of people walking to a gas chamber. So, where is the photo showing the gas chamber? Where is the photo showing them walking into the gas chamber? Any photographer would have taken those photos as well if the people were walking into a gas chamber. Yet, there are no such photos. Just a photo of people walking on a road. |
That’s why we don’t consider it evidence. Duh.
Rudolfo:
The only time in history people have been killed in gas chambers, and the photographer just takes a photo of them walking on the road and walks away. It's preposterous. The fact that there are no photos showing them walking into the gas chamber proves that the photo is a hoax. |
You actually don’t know the circumstances of that photo any more than we do. But for the sake of argument, what if the Nazi’s didn’t allow the photographer take any pictures of people walking into gas chambers? Remember, it was supposed to be a secret. But really, it’s a moot point because no one here is claiming that the pictures are evidence.
Rudolfo:
Suppose I told you the photo was of people walking to see an alien spacecraft that had just landed. You would then say with eager anticipation, "ok. wow, let's see the photo of the spacecraft and of the people entering it". If I didn't have such a photo your common sense would tell you that the photo of them walking on the road was just that, and that my claim that they were going to see a spacecraft was total nonsense. |
As Dave correctly pointed out, the pictures don’t exist in a vacuum. There is other evidence that the holocaust happened. But again, it’s a moot point because no one here is saying that the pictures are evidence that people were gassed.
Rudolfo:
These people are walking to their certain death. Now, clearly they are unaware of this impending doom. We have no idea where the photo was taken, but let's assume Auschwitz. At Auschwitz they were supposedly killing 10,000 Jews PER DAY. (That's the figure that's usually given for Treblinka as well). Yet these people didn't have a clue. At the same time, there was a Hollywood production written by screenwriter Ben Hecht, that played the major cities in the US in 1943, showing the extermination of the Jews in the camps. So, we knew in Hollywood, NY, LA, DC, etc., 5000 miles from the scene, that the Jews were being exterminated in the camps, but the Jews themselves, just a few steps away from the gas chamber, didn't have a clue. This is beyond preposterous. |
Just how much information do you think the Jews were getting? As I understand it, a goal was to keep them in the dark about their fate to make it easier to carry out the murders. The story is, and there is testimony on both sides to back this up, that they were being led to showers and then assigned to whatever work the Nazi’s wanted them to do. In that way, the other Jews would not notice their disappearance. And again, proximity does not equate to knowledge as Dave has correctly pointed out.
Rudolfo:
Thus, there is not a shred of evidence supporting the claim that the people are walking to a gas chamber, and there are compelling reasons for believing that they are not walking to a gas chamber. |
The photo’s are not evidence. But again, they don’t exist in a vacuum. The best you can do is show that the photo’s are not evidence of gassings, which we already agree with you on. It’s interesting what counts as “compelling” to you.
Rudolfo:
So, it's clear to me that if you can actually 'argue' that the photos are legit, then your critical faculties are non-existent and/or you have some sort of inculcated belief system that makes rational analysis impossible. |
Well, now my irony meter just broke…
The photo’s might be legit. You don’t know that they aren’t and we don’t know that they are. A person using the tools of critical thinking would understand that anyone doing a rational analysis would not jump to any conclusions about what they represent, as only you have done. It’s your willingness to feed your bias on flimsy, and in this case, no evidence at all, especially if the photo's are to be viewed in a vacuum and pronounced a hoax based on your belief or your gut feeling which seems to be your preferred logical failing that is being called into question. And I will keep calling it into question as long as you keep making the same mistake.
Rudolfo:
I've seen it in people I know, so I do recognize it as a real phenomenon. But the people I know do not get on the internet and argue, that is, they don't take an active interest, so it's not quite the same thing. |
You have to be kidding, right? Why would you bring what you do into this discussion as something negative? But by all means, go on and kick yourself.
Rudolfo:
In short, I am baffled. If something this obvious is not apparent to you, what sense is there in cataloging the various obvious lies in the holocaust narrative. If one as absurd as the photos is not apparent, then there is no hope. |
Most people bring their best with them. Are all the “lies” that you have cataloged all called lies because you have a gut feeling and a belief about them too?
How about bringing us some irrefutable evidence? That would be refreshing coming from you at this point. Just a suggestion…
Rudolfo:
So, I'd like to focus on the photo. Not that it answers everything, but because if you can't evaluate it for what it is, then you can't evaluate anything, for reasons I do not understand. |
Naa. We have already been through this. How you think any of the photo's add up doesn’t really interest me. I’m not willing to evaluate them without context. And that is what you are doing. It’s one big strawman argument, and I am not willing to indulge either the fallacy or your lack of critical thinking skills. But I am more than willing to point them out.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 11:34:19 [Permalink]
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Missed this part:Originally posted by Rudolfo
...because if you can't evaluate it for what it is, then you can't evaluate anything, for reasons I do not understand. |
Well, that much is obvious. You make unsupportable logical leaps all the time, and you can't understand how other people don't. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 11:39:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Most people bring their best with them. |
The problem is that their "best" isn't very good at all. We ask people to bring their "A" games, and we get strawmen, non-sequitors, hasty generalizations and even lies, instead. And when they can't answer the criticisms, they change the subject.
Hey, Rudolfo: how do you know that the smiling, healthy kids are Jews? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2010 : 12:17:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
Most people bring their best with them. |
The problem is that their "best" isn't very good at all. We ask people to bring their "A" games, and we get strawmen, non-sequitors, hasty generalizations and even lies, instead. And when they can't answer the criticisms, they change the subject.
Hey, Rudolfo: how do you know that the smiling, healthy kids are Jews?
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Amazin', ain't it -- no, no I guess not. Rudolfo, the answers to every one of your questions are to be found farther back in the thread. All of them. Merely rewording a question along with a little hand-waving does not make it a new one -- except to politicians and FOXnews. And Holocaust deniers; those who think parts of history should be written in their favor. What is your problem with Jews (and Romney, Jehovah's Witness', homosexuals, the disabled, et al.), anyway? Why are you attempting to defend some of history's greatest scumbags? Not the greatest, mind you; that honor belongs to the Abrahamic religions and at the rate they're going today, will never be overtaken even by the most rabid of the Hitler freaks. But the Nazis accomplished their scumbaggery in a few, short years whereas the religions took decades; even centuries.
Now, stop waving your hands and tossing logical fallicies hither & yon, and go back and study this thread. Be sure to check out the references as you go along.
Like that's gonna happen. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 12:20:19 [Permalink]
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I've seen the posts from Dave W. and Kil, and to my mind they are pure idiocy. Trying to construct some argument by saying the photos are not 'evidence' is ..... beyond comment.
I'd like to hear what the other posters have say. |
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What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?
