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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2011 : 10:17:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
It's a meaningless worldview, which hopelessness follows meaningless like night follows day.
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Straw man. It is neither meaningless nor hopeless. (EDIT) What I mean is that, for you, this life only has meaning because you may get a gold star on your forehead if you're a nice boy. In effect, this life is only a "trial run". Instead, you better realize that this life is "the gift" so to speak. It is the only life you're going to get, so enjoy it, treat your fellow man as you would wanted to be treated and, instead of trying to "find" meaning, "make" meaning. You're life is what you make of it, what you choose to do, and what you choose to pay attention to. If you focus on your aching back, you're going to be miserable. But if you choose to value what you do have, then you are making life "meaningfull"
The universe doesn't owe us a "meaning". Why does everything have to have a "purpose"? We occupy such an infinitesimal (sp?) spot in this universe, why do you choose to believe that we are "the chosen ones"?
(END EDIT)
You can cling to a hopeless worldview and not even realize it.
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And you can cling to a delusional worldview and not realize it. You can go on believing that your magical sky daddy is going to reward you with a life of flying ponies and winged cherubs strumming harps, but it ain't gonna happen.
It's kind of sad that you believe that the only thing that keeps you from committing all sorts of heinous behavior and the fear that, like Santa Claus, the big G-man is keeping track of who's naughty and who's nice and you either go to Candyland or to some Heironymus Bosch painting. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
| Edited by - Fripp on 01/12/2011 10:41:58 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 10:34:13 [Permalink]
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Bill:
Clearly MSNBC is nothing but a puppet for the white house. |
Yeah right. That's why the liberals on MSNBC spent so much time being critical of Obama, most recently because of the deal he made on taxes. They do that often when they don't agree with the white house that you say they are a puppet of. That's also why they have a Republican host for their morning show. Couldn't GE find "liberals" more supportive of the white house?
You have made an unsupported allegation about MSNBC that even on the surface of it, given the programing, makes no sense. What else is new Bill?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 10:49:51 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Fripp |
| Straw man. It is neither meaningless nor hopeless. |
But it is. Saying it is not does not make it so. It is meaningless.
| Instead, you better realize that this life is all you have. There's nothing after this. So make the best of it. |
You do not know this, no matter how much you think you do, you do not. You have no way of even knowing this. It is your belief but that is a far cry from knowing.
| And you can cling to a delusional worldview and not realize it. You can go on believing that your magical sky daddy is going to reward you with a life of flying ponies and winged cherubs strumming harps, but it ain't gonna happen. |
Boy, it that was my worldview than I would agree with you on the delusion part.
| It's kind of sad that you believe that the only thing that keeps you from committing all sorts of heinous behavior and the fear that, like Santa Claus, the big G-man is keeping track of who's naughty and who's nice and you either go to Candyland or to some Heironymus Bosch painting. |
Again, you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about and are just rambling now. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:04:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Maybe censorship was not the best choice of words. |
Maybe it was just overblown rhetoric from a right-wing reactionary.| But my point was that this is just more anti-capitalism anti-free market liberal garbage. |
If it could be shown that free-markets work as advertised, I'd be all for them. However, since many of the premises of free-market economics are already known to be false, I don't hold high hopes of it ever happening.| The liberal progressives have become rather accustomed in the governmental realm to using other people's money to prop up failing entities which they happen to agree with politically and/or philosophically. |
Ditto the conservatives. So what?| So now they will even go so far as to try and legislate the propping up of failing entities using other people's money in the free market as well!!! |
What do you think taxes are, exactly?| Apparently in the "progressive" world there is no shame in being a propped up and government subsidized entity while the pride and satisfaction of working hard and standing on your own two feet as a self-sustaining entity is just not worth the cost when it can also be done using other people's money. |
That doesn't make any sense; it's a total non-sequitor.Yeah, me too. When are we going to hear some good free-market arguments? sigh| This mentality is draining on the free market system... |
Did it ever occur to you that it may need to be drained?| ...and for those who are actually contributing something to the market to see those who only take and do not contribute. |
Well, selective vision isn't something you'd never be accused of, Bill.| If we are going to live in world where the government legislates "fairness" in the free market by propping up failing entities using other people's money than where does it stop? |
It stops when the citizens say it stops.| Can the MAC conference have the government step in and make things "fair" using other people's money because the Big 10 conference has it's own network and the MAC does not? |
Never heard of baseball's antitrust exemption, have you?| And who decides what is fair and what to prop up using other people's money? |
The Fairness Doctrine was pretty clear on that. What was wrong with it?| Sounds like a slippery slope to a bureaucratic disaster if you ask me. |
Slippery slope arguments are often fallacious.| I mean it's not like we have a long list of over bloated under efficient governmental red tape nightmares already. *sigh* Let's just give the government control of "fairness" now. *Oh good grief!* |
Indeed, if you can imagine the government doing something absolutely horrible, then that must mean that a smidgen of government intrusion is exactly the same as that horrible thing.  | I don't care if it is .1% of the budget and the line up is totally conservative. In today's day and age where we have 100's if not 1000's of media outlets on the airwaves there is no need whatsoever for government sponsored radio. |
NPR is not "government sponsored radio." Didn't you read what I wrote? Grants aren't "sponsorship."| Dude there are plenty of ways of sharing ideas on how we run our country apart from talking head shows on evening cable programing who are running for profit shows. |
Son, you can't counter the argument that only popular ideas will be heard on popular shows by pointing to the thousands of much, much less popular media outlets.| We did have a working political system in place before the advent of cable news you do know, right? |
We also had the Fairness Doctrine, and before that we had elected officials who cared about making the right decisions instead of getting re-elected.| But we all know that what is "good" is simply in the eye of the beholder. |
Um, no, we can measure what's "good" or not with metrics like lost productivity due to illness or how much of a person's salary goes towards paying for health care. Once we agree on a set of metrics, we can measure the results of various plans and compare them to see which ones are better than others. We already have lots of data from Europe, Canada and Asia. And compared to them, US citizens are paying much more and getting much less (which in a free market, should be our systems' death knell). Switching to a nationalized system could give us better care for less money. Don't you want to keep your money? Or do you prefer to throw some of it away in order to retain your "freedom?"| Another liberal attribute. Ramming what is unpopular and unwanted down the throats of the American people... |
That's our constitutional republic for ya. The Constitution says that 545 people get to decide what's good for you, whether it's popular or not. Don't like it? Work to amend the Constitution so that every single issue facing the government is put to a direct, popular vote. You won't have a republic anymore, nor will the Constitution last for very long, but you'll get that mob mentality fired up to full strength.| ...and simply washing your hands of it my convincing yourself that the majority is to stupid to know what is best for them and we in the minority do know best and will legislate our genius on to them. *sigh* |
Um, when Democrats were the majority in Congress, they weren't the minority. It seems that you really do want direct voter initiatives instead of a representational government. Good luck with that.| It's you guys who seem to live in this fantasy bubble that says only conservative leaning media is full of rhetoric while believing the left leaning outlets are walking saints without an ounce of bias in their bones. *sigh* |
It only seems that way because you don't care enough to pay attention to what's being said. "Conservatives are spewing far more violent rhetoric than liberals" isn't a code phrase for "liberals spew no violent rhetoric," no matter how much you might want it to be.
Funny thing is, Kieth Olbermann apologized for his contribution to the nastiness. Will we see Glenn Beck do the same?| I fully agree that the Palin phrasing of reload rather than retreat may have not been the best campaign rhetoric to use. |
Then there's hope for you, yet.| But this whole new mentality of digging through the past of any psycho who commits atrocities and then blaming Fox News, Sarah Palin and Glen Beck because the guy may have voted for a republican city councilman 5 years ago is just so silly it's laughable. That's my point. |
But that's exactly what you're doing when you're calling Loughner an "atheistic left wing pothead." It was five years ago that he was a goddammed hippie, not last week.| It's equally as silly as blaming all "atheistic left wing potheads" for the atrocities because the descriptions of the psycho came back as him being an atheistic left wing pothead. |
Five years ago.
But my point is that your "blaming" rhetoric is just as silly. Everyone blames Loughner for his actions. Some people are saying that other people should take some responsibility, also (not "instead").
(Some of those other people are now using this tragedy to make pleas for campaign contributions. The Tea Party Express is a bunch of sick fucks.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:06:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
With the white house pumping money into GE... |
The White House is pumping money into GE? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:07:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Bill:
Clearly MSNBC is nothing but a puppet for the white house. |
Yeah right. That's why the liberals on MSNBC spent so much time being critical of Obama, most recently because of the deal he made on taxes. They do that often when they don't agree with the white house that you say they are a puppet of. That's also why they have a Republican host for their morning show. Couldn't GE find "liberals" more supportive of the white house?
You have made an unsupported allegation about MSNBC that even on the surface of it, given the programing, makes no sense. What else is new Bill?
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Saying that MSNBC is unbiased by pointing to the fact that they play good prison shows on the weekends and have a republican congressman from the 1990's hosting a morning show (who watches cable news in the morning anyway) is like me pointing out the fact that liberal commentator Alan Combs had a show on FOX for what 10 years and saying because of that fact that in no way could FOX news ever be biased. *sigh*
They (MSNBC) run bleeding heart anchored commentary shows their whole prime time line up and then replay them after that. They are owned by GE, who gets money from Obama, and their most popular commentator donates money from his own check to dem candidates. Pointing to a prison show they play on the weekend is not going to whitewash those facts. Now don't ignore these facts and start rambling on and on about FOX news. I agree with you, they tend to lean to the right on much of their programing. I am not here to defend FOX news but rather I am here to get you, it's been like pulling teeth, to acknowledge what we all already know. MSNBC leans just as hard to the left, if not more, than FOX leans to the right. The sooner you realize this known fact the better off you will be. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:08:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
It's a meaningless worldview... |
Atheism isn't a worldview at all.| ...which hopelessness follows meaningless like night follows day. |
Evidence, please? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:17:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Please explain why an atheistic worldview is considered "hopeless". |
It's a meaningless worldview, which hopelessness follows meaningless like night follows day.
The majority of posters here have an atheistic worldview and from my dealings with them "hopeless" would be the opposite of how I would describe them. I am also far from "hopeless".
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You can cling to a hopeless worldview and not even realize it.
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"Hopeless"? No more reality based than hopeless. Without evidence for the supernatural basing a worldview on supernatural beliefs seems delusional. But the more popular a supernatural belief is the more acceptable the delusion. So that diagnosis is never made for popular beliefs.
Besides: "Reality really doesn't care whether you are comfortable with it or distressed by it." - H. Humbert
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:34:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Oh yeah. They have 3 liberal shows on a day.
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Well by my count:
MSNBC:
Mitchell Reports
Dylan Ratigan
Ed Shultz
Chris Matthews
Oberman
Maddow
Foxnews:
Hannity
Beck
O'Reilly
VanSustren
It is odd to me that you defend MSNBC when they do the sam thing as Foxnews. Both networks have a point of view.
BTW, if you can claim Juan Williams is a conservative then I can claim Joe Scarborough is not a conservative. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:51:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
But it is. Saying it is not does not make it so. It is meaningless.
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Meaningless and hopelessness are opinions. In your opinion, you see atheism as such. Just like your opinion that the results of this last election were "good" and I think that they are bad". This is not a hard concept to grasp, but apparently it's eluding you.
You do not know this, no matter how much you think you do, you do not. You have no way of even knowing this. It is your belief but that is a far cry from knowing. |
It is your duty to prove your claim of an afterlife. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is a fact that when people die, they "go away" permanently, and there is not one shred of evidence of an afterlife. Until you produce said evidence, it's a fact that when this life is over, it's over. Period.
Again, you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about and are just rambling now.
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I think I struck a nerve. It is very clear what I'm saying and you just don't like it. You can phrase in a different way, but it's exactly the same thing. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:53:58 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Fripp |
| The universe doesn't owe us a "meaning". |
Your right and that is just what I said from the beginning. In a completely materialistic universe, no matter which route you take, you always end up with a meaningless existence. Don't start yelling at me about it as those are just the facts. If you have come to another conclusion than please share it with us. Again it's not my fault that theism has a monopoly on meaningful existences but that is just the reality of the situation.
| Why does everything have to have a "purpose"? |
Purpose leads to meaning and meaning leads to hope. Without purpose you have no meaning and without meaning you have no hope. Which means that atheism always ends in hopelessness. Again just the facts, don't shoot the messenger. Dude in an atheistic materialist universe everything is ultimately meaningless. Your job, your actions, your joys, your sorrows, your loves, your relationships, all of your accomplishments and even your life itself is just nothing but a meaningless existence without any purpose what so ever. In a short time your body will die and at that point in the materialistic universe your whole identity ceases to exist. All your memories and self-awareness will be gone forever. It will be just as if you had never lived at all. So in your belief system I would agree: Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. But ultimately even having a good time is proved meaningless for the materialist as in a short while nothing or no one will be in existence to even remember the "good times".
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:03:37 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by moakley |
| "Reality really doesn't care whether you are comfortable with it or distressed by it." |
I don't point out the meaningless of atheism as if that is some kind of evidence for theism. I point out the fact that atheism ends in a meaningless existence because the facts are that atheism ends a meaningless existence. How you choose to react and deal with those facts is completely up to you but facts they remain.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:07:48 [Permalink]
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WTF?
Some nutjob kills a bunch of people and you all go off on SIX pages of nonsense?.....???
This didn't have ANYTHING to do with leftwing's, rightwing's or the media. HE WAS NUTS! |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:09:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Don't start yelling at me about it as those are just the facts.
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I'm not yelling.
| Again it's not my fault that theism has a monopoly on meaningful existences but that is just the reality of the situation. |
I have an extremely meaningful existence living what I consider as a purposeful life, living in the here and now. I don't need an imaginary being to add "meaning". It's kind of sad that you do.
Face it Bill. The only difference us is that I believe in one less god than you do.
Purpose leads to meaning and meaning leads to hope. Without purpose you have no meaning and without meaning you have no hope. Which means that atheism always ends in hopelessness. |
And exactly what you hoping for? I have plenty of meaning and plenty of purpose and I don't need a long-haired savior to "find it".
atheistic materialist universe everything is ultimately meaningless. Your job, your actions, your joys, your sorrows, your loves, your relationships, all of your accomplishments and even your life itself is just nothing but a meaningless existence without any purpose what so ever. In a short time your body will die and at that point in the materialistic universe your whole identity ceases to exist. All your memories and self-awareness will be gone forever. It will be just as if you had never lived at all. So in your belief system I would agree: Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. But ultimately even having a good time is proved meaningless for the materialist as in a short while nothing or no one will be in existence to even remember the "good times".
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Exactly. And the problem is?
It just scares you that that's the way it is. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:12:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Kil
Oh yeah. They have 3 liberal shows on a day.
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Well by my count:
MSNBC:
Mitchell Reports
Dylan Ratigan
Ed Shultz
Chris Matthews
Oberman
Maddow
Foxnews:
Hannity
Beck
O'Reilly
VanSustren
It is odd to me that you defend MSNBC when they do the sam thing as Foxnews. Both networks have a point of view.
BTW, if you can claim Juan Williams is a conservative then I can claim Joe Scarborough is not a conservative.
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I'm not even going to try here. I could say that Chris Matthews is a centrist democrat, and all that Dylan Ratigan is interested in is what's going down, without espousing liberalism per-say. I could also point out that most of the day is just regular reporting and that the weekends none of those shows are on. I could point out that what goes on at Fox is 24/7 and even the newscasters are given special phrases to use to tilt even straight news along conservative lines. But I'm not going to do that because you will apparently go down fighting that these two media organizations are equal somehow.
Again, maybe it would be better to check the facts that are coming out of MSNBC and FOX and do an unbiased comparison. I mean really Robb. How many times have you come here with some story that has come out of the right wing media machine and we have blown it to pieces with citable facts?
For my money, I'll take Rachel Maddow, because she does her homework and I have never seen her just make shit up. She is also very fair to her conservative guests (when they are willing to appear) and always asks them at the end of the interview if they felt that they were treated fairly by her. She's one classy journalist.
Not all things are equal quality Robb. Not even journalists with opposing political viewpoints.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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I hope these aren't the first shots in a civil war
