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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:28:37 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Fripp |
| Meaningless and hopelessness are opinions. In your opinion, you see atheism as such. Just like your opinion that the results of this last election were "good" and I think that they are bad". This is not a hard concept to grasp, but apparently it's eluding you. |
It is a fact, and not my opinion, that atheism ends in a meaningless existence. If not than give me the meaning for your existence in this materialistic universe and who provided that meaning? When your life ultimately ends in nothingness than all preceding the nothingness is ultimately rendered meaningless. That is just a fact, Fripp. It's like 1+2 = 3. You may not like it or grasp it but still is so.
| It is your duty to prove your claim of an afterlife.Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is a fact that when people die, they "go away" permanently, and there is not one shred of evidence of an afterlife. Until you produce said evidence, it's a fact that when this life is over, it's over. Period. |
Your wrong and it is not a fact, it's just your belief. You no more can prove that once you die it's over than I can prove an afterlife. We both have our beliefs and that is what we both hang out hats on at the end of the day. It's your belief that after we die nothing.
| I think I struck a nerve. It is very clear what I'm saying and you just don't like it. You can phrase in a different way, but it's exactly the same thing. |
You struck a nerve because you purposefully misrepresent me. And that you believe you know for a fact what happens at the death of this body. YOU DON'T KNOW FOR A FACT AND ARE JUST LIVING WITH A BELIEF! |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:40:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Fripp
Instead, you better realize that this life is all you have. There's nothing after this. So make the best of it. |
You do not know this, no matter how much you think you do, you do not. |
Neither do you.
| You have no way of even knowing this. |
Neither do you.
So how do you suggest we solve this dilemma?
If we agree that we don't know what happens after we die, why not focus on making the best of what we have right now?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:43:16 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Fripp |
| I have an extremely meaningful existence living what I consider as a purposeful life, living in the here and now. |
That's all fine and dandy, Fripp, but in the end it all ends in nothingness, which renders all meaningless. I don't know how else to explain this to you. But the facts are and remain that you do not know what happens after death, you only have a belief of what happens and that atheism always ends in meaninglessness. Talk this over with your atheistic buddies and when you realize that I am correct here than we can continue the conversation. Until you can grasp these basic truths our conversation is on hold. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:45:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
This didn't have ANYTHING to do with leftwing's, rightwing's or the media. HE WAS NUTS!
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Yes, finally one of you who agrees with what I have been saying all along. My work here is now finished |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:05:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
"Reality really doesn't care whether you are comfortable with it or distressed by it."
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I don't point out the meaningless of atheism as if that is some kind of evidence for theism. I point out the fact that atheism ends in a meaningless existence because the facts are that atheism ends a meaningless existence. How you choose to react and deal with those facts is completely up to you but facts they remain.
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The implication being that it takes a belief in the supernatural to provide ones life with meaning clearly distancing yourself from reality providing you a buffer from your meaningless life. It's puzzling to me how a theist can claim their life has greater meaning than a non-theist since they, by following some set of rules, will have life enternal. Of course you will  . On the other hand I have no such delusions, this is the only life I can be sure of, the only life I expect. You can damn well be sure I treat my life as meaningful and consider myself lucky to be based on the evidence of reality has shown.
edited to add:
Originally posted by Bill scott
That's all fine and dandy, Fripp, but in the end it all ends in nothingness, which renders all meaningless.
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I'm sorry that you are distressed by the idea that you will just be dead. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 01/12/2011 13:15:21 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:06:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
YOU DON'T KNOW FOR A FACT AND ARE JUST LIVING WITH A BELIEF!
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Now, who's yelling?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:06:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
If not than give me the meaning for your existence in this materialistic universe and who provided that meaning? |
Bill is so entitled that he even has to have purpose given to him. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:14:30 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse |
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I know that I don't know. Didn't you read the part where I said that we both have our beliefs?
| So how do you suggest we solve this dilemma? |
If I could answer that question than I would be the first in the history of world to do so. This is the age old debate to end all age old debates. If my Christian beliefs are reality than we will know at the death of our bodies or whenever God decides that the days of grace have come to an end. If your atheistic beliefs are correct than I am thinking we will never know as when this life comes to an end so does all self-awareness and any memory of the time we spent here on earth. In short we will not be here, or anywhere for that matter, or have any self-awareness or identity in existence to even realize what the final conclusion of our reality was. It all ends in nothingness, which as we all know, ends in meaninglessness.
| If we agree that we don't know what happens after we die, why not focus on making the best of what we have right now? |
Who says that I don't? Just because I have a belief in life after death does not mean that I render the here and now meaninglessness. In fact it just the opposite. It is my belief in life after death and my belief that choices here have results in the after life that give the here and now infinite meaning while the nothingness of atheism ultimately renders the here and now as meaninglessness. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:17:41 [Permalink]
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSChA2FXjAQ
Interesting part is how FOX-news react to something unfavourable to "their" agenda... it's about halfway in the segment.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:22:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
It is a fact, and not my opinion, that atheism ends in a meaningless existence. |
You are taking "meaningless" as "what's the point? Why should I do anything if it will ultimately amount to nothing? I'm just going to mope on the couch and eat cheetos until I disappear forever."
I take meaningless as "I'm here. No reason, no purpose, it just is. It's pretty cool being here. If I do certain things I can enjoy myself while I'm here. But when the ride's over, it's over."
If not than give me the meaning for your existence in this materialistic universe and who provided that meaning?
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There is none, other than what you choose to do to make it meaningful for you.
When your life ultimately ends in nothingness than all preceding the nothingness is ultimately rendered meaningless.
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Ummm... I know.
You may not like it or grasp it but still is so.
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I grasp it perfectly. It simply doesn't matter whether I like it or not. It simply is. The universe simply has no feelings towards us at all. It is up to us (and only us-no imaginary guys) to make it meaningful.
Your wrong and it is not a fact, it's just your belief. You no more can prove that once you die it's over than I can prove an afterlife. We both have our beliefs and that is what we both hang out hats on at the end of the day. It's your belief that after we die nothing.
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You still don't get it. I can't prove a negative. It is up to you to support your claim.
You struck a nerve because you purposefully misrepresent me. And that you believe you know for a fact what happens at the death of this body. YOU DON'T KNOW FOR A FACT AND ARE JUST LIVING WITH A BELIEF!
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Prove there's a heaven. Prove there's an afterlife. Until you can do that, it is not I who "has" a belief. I simply have "no belief" because there's no evidence to the contrary.
It is you that has the belief that if you behave nicely, you'll get a prize at the end. If you didn't have that belief, would you still act the same way towards your fellow man.
I don't need to be scared into doing the right thing. I do it without any incentive. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:24:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Through all of this, the truth is suffering. No one is interesting in reporting what actually happens, what actually caused it. Your media is just selling you a narrative they belive you'll buy (and which the owners want you to believe). |
For the most part agreed. My point has been that if you think this is limited to right wing leaning outlets only than you are just as fooled as the right wingers are by Fox news. |
My exposure to FOX, CNN, and MSNBC is fairly limited since these entities are not actively broadcasting in Sweden. I don't believe that FOX is the only problem here. CNN is what gets most exposure of the three over here, and even with them I have detected a clear right-wing editorializing in their reporting, as opposed to simply unbiased reporting.
| Reporting according to journalistic principles are forgotten, you have forgotten it, and the media owners are getting fat on seing you buying their crap. |
Yes and no. I don't buy their crap. I seldom watch tv but when I do my favorites are animal planet and ESPN. Fox ain't making a dime off of this conservative leaning American.
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Do you get unpolitically biased reported local- and world-news from those?
| In the meantime, I watch my government sponsored, regulated to be unbiased, news reporting |
An oxymoron to end all oxymoron's. |
I feel truly sorry for you, that you can't trust your government. But alas, you have the government you deserve. I live in a country where partisanship isn't the prime directive in all things political, and where parties don't figuratively kill to stack the deck in their favour. In my country, the politicians still serve the people and not themselves at the public's expense.
| and I see the world going to hell because Americans choose to believe in their own fairytale that free-market economy is King. |
Well the free market economy is king. |
No, it isn't. A moderately regulated market based on the ideas of the free-market is better. A totally free market economy relies on all participants acting rationally, in their best long term interests (like the survival of the human race as a long term goal), and a shit-load of other conditions.
The commercials as they are designed today clearly speaks to the fact that Man isn't rational; they rely on that.
| That is just a fact that is undisputed by reality. |
As viewed through your reality-altering protection glasses. But we already knew that your perception of reality is something quite different from how the world really is.
Is it perfect? No, but name one that is. And dude while not perfect without America you'd probably being speaking German right now. Your welcome.
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Gee, thanks. If it wasn't for the French, you'd be bowing to the English Queen. What's your point?
Back then, perhaps America wasn't such a bad place. I didn't live back then, so I couldn't say. But a lot of shit has happened since then. If I had to trade my language to German, in order to rid the world of the imperialistic Pax Americana and America's constant interference where it doesn't belong, then I'd happily comply!
Unfortunately, it's not that simple.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:30:44 [Permalink]
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Bill, if you are happy with your belief, great. By all means, continue on because it makes you happy.
But don't claim that we atheists are such a dour, miserable bunch because we don't believe. You love to pass judgment on us because we don't share your beliefs.
Trust me, we're just as happy as you are. We just don't need a god to "give" us happiness. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 13:40:14 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by moakley |
| The implication being that it takes a belief in the supernatural to provide ones life with meaning clearly distancing yourself from reality providing you a buffer from your meaningless life. It's puzzling to me how a theist can claim their life has greater meaning than a non-theist since they, by following some set of rules, will have life eternal. Of course you will . |
A. It is my belief that we all have eternal life. The question that remains is where will this eternal life be spent? With or separated from our Creator.
B. Where we spend eternity is not based on us keeping a set of rules. If so we would all be spending eternity separated from our creator. Accepting or rejecting God's grace is what determines our final destination. Those heading for an eternity with their creator are not doing so based on works but rather based on accepting God's already finished work on our behalf.
| On the other hand I have no such delusions, this is the only life I can be sure of, the only life I expect. You can damn well be sure I treat my life as meaningful and consider myself lucky to be based on the evidence of reality has shown. |
Look, one more time, you can assign meaning to your life all you want. Heck, it might even give you nice warm fuzzes to do so, but at the end of atheism waits nothingness, and nothingness ultimately renders meaninglessness, every time. It's an empirical fact. If you still don't think so than can you give me an example in the known world of nothing having meaning? I mean start with nothing and try and show or provide us with some meaning for the nothingness. I'll save you some time here because it can't be done. Nothingness renders 100% meaninglessness 100% of the time. Atheism ends in nothingness and so therefore, always, is rendered meaninglessness or without meaning without fail. Again I am not saying that because atheism always ends in meaninglessness that this somehow is evidence for theism. Just pointing out the fact that atheism leads to 100% meaninglessness 100% of the time. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 14:14:49 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Fripp |
| You are taking "meaningless" as "what's the point? |
Last time, I am taking "meaningless" as "something with no meaning" or "something without meaning."
| There is none, other than what you choose to do to make it meaningful for you. |
But even what you choose to make meaningful for you ends in nothingness, which ends in meaninglessness. Just a fact fripp.
| When your life ultimately ends in nothingness than all preceding the nothingness is ultimately rendered meaningless. |
Ummm... I know. |
But yet you keep claiming that your life has meaning. You can't have it both ways, as your trying to do here.
| You may not like it or grasp it but still is so. |
I grasp it perfectly. It simply doesn't matter whether I like it or not. It simply is. The universe simply has no feelings towards us at all. It is up to us (and only us-no imaginary guys) to make it meaningful. |
You just agreed in the last sentence that nothingness renders meaninglessness and now your flip flopping saying that you assign meaning to your life again. Your all over the board here. Atheism renders nothingness and nothingness renders meaninglessness, every time. Go back one up and reread your own words.
| Your wrong and it is not a fact, it's just your belief. You no more can prove that once you die it's over than I can prove an afterlife. We both have our beliefs and that is what we both hang out hats on at the end of the day. It's your belief that after we die nothing. |
You still don't get it. I can't prove a negative. It is up to you to support your claim. |
Oh good grief! You are the one claiming to know for a fact what happens after death and not me. I said that I had a belief of what happens. A fry cry from claiming to definitively know. Sometimes it's hard to tell if you really don't get this or our just being obtuse.
| You struck a nerve because you purposefully misrepresent me. And that you believe you know for a fact what happens at the death of this body. YOU DON'T KNOW FOR A FACT AND ARE JUST LIVING WITH A BELIEF! |
Prove there's a heaven. Prove there's an afterlife. Until you can do that, it is not I who "has" a belief. I simply have "no belief" because there's no evidence to the contrary. |
BS!!!!! You said you definitively know what happens after we die. I simply pointed out that you have a belief of what happens.
| It is you that has the belief that if you behave nicely, you'll get a prize at the end. If you didn't have that belief, would you still act the same way towards your fellow man. |
Strawman.
| I don't need to be scared into doing the right thing. I do it without any incentive. |
One more time, nice and slow and from the top, now repeat after me: Atheism leads to nothingness and nothingness renders meaninglessness 100% of the time. Therefore your life is meaningless just as you acknowledged a few lines up. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 14:27:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
One more time, nice and slow and from the top, now repeat after me: Atheism leads to nothingness and nothingness renders meaninglessness 100% of the time. Therefore your life is meaningless just as you acknowledged a few lines up. |
I'm jumping in late here, but the above is pretty ridiculous. I won't speak for anyone but myself, but to assert that because I don't follow some sadistic god then my life is therefore meaningless is a totally ridiculous-- but not unexpected-- statement. |
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I hope these aren't the first shots in a civil war
