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Rumtopf
Banned
126 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2014 : 23:07:39 [Permalink]
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Rumtopf. I don't see how any of the quoted material supports the claim that Caroline Sturdy Colls is lying about anything. But I sure can see how it would cause holocaust deniers to get their knickers into a bind and create a list of questions seeking to discredit her. My thinking is that it wouldn't be a list of silly strawman questions, like those posted here and elsewhere, if there were obvious legitimate criticisms out there for the deniers to latch on to. Apparently, there aren't.
Thomas Kues on recent archaeological finds at Treblinka |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 01/20/2014 : 06:57:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rumtopf
Dr. Mabuse:
"There isn't much discussion"
Would you like to have a discussion about the mass graves of Treblinka Dr. Mabuse? |
It is a subject that is not of much interest to me as such. But the holocaust is a really terrible result of a combination of very poor politics, manipulation, lack of skeptical thinking among the population, absolutism inherited from religion, and then some...
We should take much care to make sure it doesn't happen again.
And the fraud of Caroline Colls?
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Calling Caroline Colls a fraud is a very serious accusation. What evidence do you have to make such a claim?
Why don't you start the discussion by telling us what your answer is to this question: |
...and now you start harping at me with these questions?
At Treblinka II, it is known - WITH 100 % CERTAINTY - that, to date, no more than and no less than __?__ extant graves have been discovered, in which legitimate archaeologists / crime scene investigators have - via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented forensic science - literally / truly - physically unearthed / tangibly located - actual, verifiable, scientifically proven human remains.
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You've obviously looked at too many episodes of CSI and Bones, but without taking away the lessons Dr. Brennan is trying to "teach" us.
Nothing is 100% certain. Scientific theories are always tentative, allowing for revision should evidence demand it. This question is unanswerable for several reasons, your demand for 100% certainty being the first one. The second is what constitutes a grave? I thought I read that before the evacuation was completed, the bodies dug up and burned, and as much of the evidence as possible destroyed. If you dig a hole and pour the ashes into it, does that constitute a grave? How much bone-fragemts have to remain before we can positively identify the pit as hole dug for the dumping of remains? What are Sturdy Coll's definition of a grave? How much human remains are expected to survive after 70 years? Easpecially if the remains have been treated in order to disappear more quickly.
| What I"m interested in Dr., is scientific proof. |
There is no such thing as "scientific proof", the term is a misnomer.
There are conjectures, hypothesis, and theories. And then there is evidence supporting one theory. One theory against another theory.
Your True/False questions is typical of people who don't understand that reality is more complex than Boolean logic. Not even Newton's Second Law of Motion, F=m*a is entirely true even if it is considered a natural law.
Because of this, all your questions with True/False-formulation presents "False dilemma" or "False dichotomy" which is a logical fallacy. Since answering your question to your satisfaction would force us to commit to a stance which we do not agree with, I don't think you will get any of us to answer your question. To do so, you require us to be dishonest. To you and to ourselves.
Instead of insisting on forcing a lose-lose situation upon us (which we reject), why don't you try something productive instead?
Ask us how and why we think your first question is flawed (I've already given you a few pointers), and genuinly try to understand why we think it's wrong, and eventually we may see that your visit here will be productive!
| If you deny this irrefutable fact, then it begs the simple question: |
"Begging the question" is also a logical fallacy. But if you promise not to jump the gun, but walk us through Coll's PhD-thesis, I'm sure we can reach a poing when the question might be answered.
| Do you have any proof of mass graves at Treblinka Dr. Mabuse? |
No.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 07:10:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
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It is a good smiley, isn't it? 
I'm so proud to have brought it here.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 08:04:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Rumtopf. I don't see how any of the quoted material supports the claim that Caroline Sturdy Colls is lying about anything. |
It doesn't, of course. Sturdy Colls says of some of the things she found, "there is a strong case for arguing that they represent burial areas," but Rumtopf twists this in his questions with his "WITH 100 % CERTAINTY" nonsense.
Sturdy Colls is acting as a responsible researcher, using many qualifications ("probable," "seem to," "strong case," etc.) in her interviews, while Rumtopf just lies.
Rumtopf even quotes Sturdy Colls addressing one of Rumtopf's obvious concerns:Issues such as post-war looting and the construction of the memorial itself and a number of other forms of landscape change that have taken place at the site, you know, could confuse interpretation so it was essential that all of these were considered when the results from the geophysical survey in particular were being assessed. In other words, she knows that the site changed after the war, but concluded that those changes can't explain away what she's found. Rumtopf can't see any of this nuance, and wants us to think that the only things Sturdy Colls has found are the results of post-war looting, or wartime latrines. His antisemitic agenda requires him to see things only in black or white, ignoring all the complexities (which we would call "reality").
And he's such a coward that he won't even try to have a discussion about any of this. He just copy-pastes stuff and then repeats his lying questions as if he's somehow nailed some point or other. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rumtopf
Banned
126 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 11:08:38 [Permalink]
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| A British forensic archaeologist has unearthed fresh evidence to prove the existence of mass graves at the Nazi death camp Treblinka - scuppering the claims of Holocaust deniers who say it was merely a transit camp... Sturdy Colls said: 'All the history books state that Treblinka was destroyed by the Nazis but the survey has demonstrated that simply isn’t the case. 'I’ve identified a number of buried pits using geophysical techniques. These are considerable in size, and very deep, one in particular is 26 by 17 metres.' |
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087735/British-archaeologist-discovers-fresh-evidence-mass-graves-World-War-Two-death-camp-Treblinka.html#ixzz1jk2tyX2D
| Uncovering mass graves of Holocaust horrors at Nazi death camp... MURDERERS always leave a trace of their crimes. Yet for more than 60 years, the physical evidence of mass graves at a former Nazi concentration camp lay undiscovered... Now Caroline Sturdy Colls, a forensic archaeologist and Staffordshire University lecturer, has built up the first scientific picture of what lies beneath the ground at Treblinka in Poland. [b]Caroline, aged 26, pictured below, said: "I had started to do research into cold cases, looking at how to use modern techniques to solve murder cases. Treblinka was the ultimate cold case... My work was trying to question what 'destroyed' really means. You are always going to leave some kind of trace... Cremation doesn't completely reduce a body to ashes... But we correlated the findings with witness accounts and also overlaid the data onto aerial photographs. That's how we worked out they were mass graves... Some pits were 34 metres long... |
http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Uncovering-mass-graves-Holocaust-horrors-Nazi/story-15342226-detail/story.html
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| Edited by - Rumtopf on 01/20/2014 11:40:59 |
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Rumtopf
Banned
126 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 11:15:54 [Permalink]
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interviewer: There are quite a few pits that you have discovered?
Sturdy Colls: Absolutely, there were a number of pits, in particular to the rear of what of what is now the current memorial, five that are actually in a row, again of a considerable size, in an area where witnesses state this was the main body disposal area, this is behind the gas chambers, it was where the majority of victims who were sent there were then subsequently buried, and later where the cremative remains of the victims were also placed.
[...]
interviewer: And what have you discovered?
Sturdy Colls: ...We’ve also identified a number of pits at the site. Again, all these pits have been mapped and corroborated with witness plans and this is indicative of a number of probable graves at the site. It is recognised as part of the survey that the history of Treblinka didn’t end with its abandonment by the Nazis. Issues such as post-war looting and the construction of the memorial itself and a number of other forms of landscape change that have taken place at the site, you know, could confuse interpretation so it was essential that all of these were considered when the results from the geophysical survey in particular were being assessed. So then all of this data was married up with historical information so we seem to have a situation here where it’s been commonly believed that all of the victims at Treblinka were cremated, they were destroyed without trace, however, the research has revealed a much more complex picture of the disposal patterns used by the Nazis. Looking at it from an offender profiling perspective, so a slightly more forensic point of view, the Nazis worked on, as do most offenders, this principle of least effort where they would actually have a burial method that very much matched the nature of their victims or their locations within the camp and there are a number of photographs and physical evidence that we observed on the ground at Treblinka that demonstrates that these bodies were not reduced to ash, that some survive as mass graves in the truest sense and that also the ashes of the victims were redeposited into the pits that they were originally exhumed from...
http://revblog.codoh.com/2012/01/comment-sturdy-colls/
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| Edited by - Rumtopf on 01/20/2014 11:48:16 |
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Rumtopf
Banned
126 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 11:30:57 [Permalink]
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Dave W:
| He's further trying to explain away what has been found as latrine or garbage pits used by the Nazis and/or as trenches dug by thieves after the war, and he's also suggesting that any cremains found might have been deposited after the occupation. |
# 1 - Is it known - WITH 100 % CERTAINTY - via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology / forensic science that, at - Treblinka II - there are extant graves in which actual human remains have literally been - physically unearthed / tangibly located - by legitimate archaeologists / crime scene investigators? - Yes. - or - No. __?__
Dave W's answer - No.
# 2 - At Treblinka II, it is known - WITH 100 % CERTAINTY - that, to date, no more than and no less than __?__ extant graves have been discovered, in which legitimate archaeologists / crime scene investigators have - via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented forensic science - literally / truly - physically unearthed / tangibly located - actual, verifiable, scientifically proven human remains.
Dave W's answer - ZERO.
# 3 - Is it true or false that, at - Treblinka II - there were actual trash and/or trash burning pits and/or latrine pits / trenches and/or water wells that were dug / used as such by the Germans - during their time of occupation? - TRUE. - or - FALSE. __?__
Dave W's answer - __?__ (Dave either doesn't understand how to answer true / false questions, or he doesn't have the courage to answer them.)
# 4 - Is it true or false that, at - Treblinka II - there were numerous exploratory excavations dug by so-called “robbery diggers / treasure seekers,” and/or by Soviet / Polish investigators - after the time of German occupation? - TRUE. - or - FALSE. __?__
Dave W's answer - __?__ (Dave either doesn't understand how to answer true / false questions, or he doesn't have the courage to answer them.)
# 5 - Is it true or false that, extraneous cremation remains have been deposited at - Treblinka II - after the time of German occupation? - TRUE. - or - FALSE. __?__
Dave W's answer - __?__(Dave either doesn't understand how to answer true / false questions, or he doesn't have the courage to answer them.)
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It is an irrefutable fact that “archaeologist” Caroline Sturdy Colls did not actually locate / prove the existence of a single real grave that contains the remains of so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1 % - of the alleged buried bodies.
Do you deny the above irrefutable fact? Yes. - or - No. __?__
Dave W's answer - No.
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Dave W:
| Besides, if I answer Greg Gerdes, I can get $70,000 |
Then what are you waiting for Dave?
What are you so afraid of? |
| Edited by - Rumtopf on 01/20/2014 11:36:57 |
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Rumtopf
Banned
126 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 11:47:11 [Permalink]
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Yeah Rumtopf. Like reposting that, or any of the stuff you have reposted, is going to make a difference.
Apparently an actual discussion is beyond your capabilities.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Rumtopf
Banned
126 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 11:52:15 [Permalink]
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It looks like fill in the blank and yes or no questions are too hard for kil to understand. Poor guy.
But maybe he has the brain power to understand true or false questions. Let's find out.
Kil, for the seventh time:
Five Very Simple Investigatory Questions About Caroline Sturdy Colls Suspiciously Vague Archaeological “Investigation” at Treblinka II
(Legitimate scientists do not fear answering pertinent questions about their claimed discoveries.)
# 1 - Is it known - WITH 100 % CERTAINTY - via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology / forensic science that, at - Treblinka II - there are extant graves in which actual human remains have literally been - physically unearthed / tangibly located - by legitimate archaeologists / crime scene investigators? - Yes. - or - No. __?__
Kil's answer - Kil doesn't understand yes or no questions.
# 2 - At Treblinka II, it is known - WITH 100 % CERTAINTY - that, to date, no more than and no less than __?__ extant graves have been discovered, in which legitimate archaeologists / crime scene investigators have - via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented forensic science - literally / truly - physically unearthed / tangibly located - actual, verifiable, scientifically proven human remains.
Kil's answer - Kil doesn't understand fill in the blank questions.
# 3 - Is it true or false that, at - Treblinka II - there were actual trash and/or trash burning pits and/or latrine pits / trenches and/or water wells that were dug / used as such by the Germans - during their time of occupation? - TRUE. - or - FALSE. __?__
Kil's answer - __?__
# 4 - Is it true or false that, at - Treblinka II - there were numerous exploratory excavations dug by so-called “robbery diggers / treasure seekers,” and/or by Soviet / Polish investigators - after the time of German occupation? - TRUE. - or - FALSE. __?__
Kil's answer - __?__
# 5 - Is it true or false that, extraneous cremation remains have been deposited at - Treblinka II - after the time of German occupation? - TRUE. - or - FALSE. __?__
Kil's answer - __?__
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It is an irrefutable fact that “archaeologist” Caroline Sturdy Colls did not actually locate / prove the existence of a single real grave that contains the remains of so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1 % - of the alleged buried bodies.
Do you deny the above irrefutable fact? Yes. - or - No. __?__
Kil's answer - Kil doesn't understand yes or no questions.
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| Edited by - Rumtopf on 01/20/2014 11:56:52 |
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Rumtopf
Banned
126 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 12:00:14 [Permalink]
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It is an irrefutable fact that “archaeologist” Caroline Sturdy Colls did not actually locate / prove the existence of a single real grave that contains the remains of so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1 % - of the alleged buried bodies.
Do you deny the above irrefutable fact Dave W? Yes. - or - No. __?__
Dave W's answer - No.
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Do you have any proof of mass graves at Treblinka Dr. Mabuse?
Dr. Mabuse's answer - No.
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| Edited by - Rumtopf on 01/20/2014 12:01:05 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 12:13:29 [Permalink]
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| I think you're trying to get banned now. You will probably succeed. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Rumtopf
Banned
126 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 12:19:51 [Permalink]
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Dave W:
"His antisemitic agenda..."
Kil:
"I think you're trying to get banned now."
Look at what Kil and Dave are resorting to!
Talking about antisemitism and banning rather than answering questions or offering an iota of proof for their beliefs.
Soooooo typical.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 13:03:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rumtopf
Dave W:
"His antisemitic agenda..."
Kil:
"I think you're trying to get banned now."
Look at what Kil and Dave are resorting to!
Talking about antisemitism and banning rather than answering questions or offering an iota of proof for their beliefs.
Soooooo typical.
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What is typical in a discussion forum is to have a discussion or a debate. What isn't typical is to allow spam and cut and paste jobs with no discussion. If you are just going to be trolling our site, you will go the way of trolls.
It's already been explained to you the problems we have with your questions. Rather than to even try to defend against our objections, you just post them again, with added an insult thrown in. Why should we put up with that? Why should anyone put up with that?
While I find the subject of your posts distasteful, I try to be fair. So does Dave. It's not all that easy to get banned from this forum, but some people seem to want it. Some people think they get to make the rules on our forum. Coincidentally or not, it's usually conspiracy theorists who behave that way.
And again, it's not up to us to prove anything. If you have a problem with Caroline Sturdy Colls, it's up to you to show us how she's wrong or dishonest. Why don't you summon up some integrity and actually engage in an honest debate or discussion? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Archaeological Fraud At Treblinka
