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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2007 : 14:09:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
| I encourage you to visit your local school and speak with the teachers and discern their opinions on federal influence. |
What a bafoon. I encourage you to take a bath with a toaster.
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You must be correct; those intimately involved in the system would not have a valid opinion of the circumstances.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 15:39:23 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote: Mainstream political speech---initiation
Mainstream media conglomerations---dissemination
Hollywood---emotion
This is not to say these group are in perfect adherence to the message. Only that this is the track that propaganda flows.
Do remember, politicians create the topics through their actions. Media needs politicians for information to resell that information. Hollywood sells what people are buying. |
These organization are not only not in perfect adherence to the message, they are in very poor adherence to the message if the messages are Communism is inherently evil and America is a Democracy. The spectrum of political speech varies quite a bit. Media conglomerates are unfortunately often lazy and don't provide enough sophisticated analysis of and counters to political speech, but that is because they are lazy, not because they are involved in some vast and uniform conspiracy to control the type of society and culture we live in. And as for Hollywood – what, are you joking? Sure, some movies go along with some mainstream political messages, but lots don't.
Jerome, this whole line of discussion is stupid. You seem to think that human beings are morons. If the American people are being controlled by such as disorganized hodgepodge of barely connected collections of institutions, then truly there is no hope at all for the human race.
Mainstream is just that: mainstream. In the 1960's Dennis Kucinich's politics were not seen as radically liberal, but rather, mainstream liberal. His politics haven't changed much at all, but today he's seen as more extreme because the mainstream shifted. And it doesn't just shift left and right, the shifting is more complex than that, including a whole variety of factors. So when you point to mainstream political speech, mainstream media, and mainstream film entertainment, of course you are going to see trends. Such trends would exist no matter what! They are not evident of any conscious and organized efforts by any group of individuals to control what the general populace thinks.
You want to see brainwashing of the public, look to North Korea. The government there has total control over all forms of media. Even in the sparsely-populated countryside, huge signs bearing pro-government messages are found everywhere. To leave the country one must be married, and when officials or other workers do leave the country, they know that if they defect, their families will be imprisoned or worse. It is illegal to not display at least two pictures of Kim Jung Il and Kim Il Sung in one's home. A huge chunk of the population is in prison for political crimes. I talked to a woman who has finally managed to defect from NK, and she explained how when you are inside, at least on some level you really believe everything the government tells you. She said she wept so hard when Kim Il Sung died that she passed out, and then did so again on the year anniversary of his death. Accepting the party line was the only way to survive.
So when you talk about propaganda and the American people mindlessly accepting what politicians say, I just want to laugh. If what you say has some truth to it, it is only true in such a watered-down way that the truth of it is practically meaningless.
| Cune, most people have to use public schools as the economics of paying for two schools when only using one are difficult for most families. |
I work at an expensive private school. Most of the families are on scholarships and many are working class |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 16:46:36 [Permalink]
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Marfknow said "Media conglomerates are unfortunately often lazy and don't provide enough sophisticated analysis of and counters to political speech, but that is because they are lazy, not because they are involved in some vast and uniform conspiracy to control the type of society and culture we live in. And as for Hollywood – what, are you joking? Sure, some movies go along with some mainstream political messages, but lots don't. "
Nothing you state here disputes my examination.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 16:53:49 [Permalink]
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Marfknow said "They are not evident of any conscious and organized efforts by any group of individuals to control what the general populace thinks."
What do you think the science of advertising is?
Look at the scientific campaign Bill Clinton ran, and Tony Blair followed with.
Advertising science followed Freud's theories.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 17:00:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, health care is a function of government? |
Most governments, including the U.S., have made it so to some extent or other. Medicare, Medicaid, the CDC, the FDA, public-school vaccination laws (etc.) are all examples of the government using public funds for health care, in line with promoting the general welfare. But you're just looking to avoid the point I made.
You also wrote:| I encourage you to visit your local school and speak with the teachers and discern their opinions on federal influence. |
And I translate this as "I don't have any hard evidence to present, so I suggest you all go and try to prove my point for me, since I can't do it." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 17:14:01 [Permalink]
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Dave, because America has moved towards socialized medicine and have been educated by government schools is only more to my point about America being de facto communistic.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 17:18:29 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote
"I encourage you to visit your local school and speak with the teachers and discern their opinions on federal influence."
Dave responded, "And I translate this as "I don't have any hard evidence to present, so I suggest you all go and try to prove my point for me, since I can't do it."
No, Dave please follow the conversation. It was claimed that despite the Department of Educations statement of influence and control that there is no control. As evidence did not suffice, I suggested talking to people first hand that are involved in the system.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 18:39:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, because America has moved towards socialized medicine and have been educated by government schools is only more to my point about America being de facto communistic. |
Since when is "socialized medicine" on the top-ten list you posted? It wasn't when you posted it eight days ago, and it still isn't there now. You still haven't been able to show that American education has been combined with industrial production. And I see you're just ignoring the points about why public education is on that list, and instead you just repeat yourself. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 18:52:33 [Permalink]
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Dave, try and read the entirety of the manifesto(I linked it). You are arguing from lack of knowledge. The list is of tenets of the manifesto spelled out in the manifesto, not a summary of the manifesto.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 19:15:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
You do realize that socialism is different from communism, yes?
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Different yet the same.
Communist: a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably
Socialism: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Thanks to Websters.
Now you are seeing the progression of the communist state.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 19:49:36 [Permalink]
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Jerome quoted a dictionary: Communist: a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably
Socialism: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done |
By these definitions, the USA is a shade of socialist, not communist. Unless you want to argue that we're in the "final stage" of Marxist theory, and the state has withered away. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 06/16/2007 19:50:06 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 20:14:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Now you are seeing the progression of the communist state. |
And finally the truth becomes apparent: you're making a slippery slope argument that the United States' shift towards socialism will eventually result, per Marx' own argument, in the U.S. being a communist state. Except that communism, as most people(including yourself) understand it, wasn't Marx' goal. Marx, an unrealistic idealist to say the least, wanted a utopia in which there was no central government and no concept of property, and so no central bank, no public schools as we know them, and no income tax whatsoever.
The recent demolition of strict communism in the old Soviet states and the current softening of communism in China both demonstrate that the progression that Marx argued was inevitable is not. Marx was wrong, and therefore so are you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 07:03:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Jerome quoted a dictionary: Communist: a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably
Socialism: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done |
By these definitions, the USA is a shade of socialist, not communist. Unless you want to argue that we're in the "final stage" of Marxist theory, and the state has withered away.
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Yes, I will argue that the state has withered away. The north American Union has presented a bureaucracy to control trade, boarders are as relevant in north america as state boarders, the money system is in private hands, the constitutional protections of individual rights are vanishing. Sovereign states are soon a thing of the past, including the USA.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 07:18:10 [Permalink]
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Dave said "you're making a slippery slope argument that the United States' shift towards socialism will eventually result, per Marx' own argument, in the U.S. being a communist state."
No, I am making the argument that America has been intentionally brought to this stage to be able to create a trading zone for the world market. I am not making a judgment. I only find interesting that these facts are denied with such vigor in the face on indisputable information.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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USA is a De facto communist state
