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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2007 : 07:47:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
No, I am making the argument that America has been intentionally brought to this stage to be able to create a trading zone for the world market. |
That's hardly the same as "USA is a De facto communist state," so thanks for admitting that you're moving the goalposts instead of continuing to defend your previous failed argument.| I am not making a judgment. |
Absolutely you are - you judge yourself to be correct and others here to be brainwashed. You're not only making a judgement, you're making an insulting judgement and then you're compounding the insult by assuming that I am so brainwashed that I won't even recognize when you're judging people.| I only find interesting that these facts are denied with such vigor in the face on indisputable information. |
What are being argued are your conclusions, and not any objective fact. For example, nobody has denied that the U.S. has public schools, but your claim that they make the U.S. more communistic has been vigiorously argued with evidence and logic. You had no rebuttal to those arguments except to repeat your dogmatic stance. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 07:53:42 [Permalink]
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| Yes, I will argue that the state has withered away. |
What about public schools? What about our military? Are those just figments of my imagination? As someone whose second job is subsidized hugely by public money (including some federal welfare funds) - fought for by our lobbyists and won by gaining the support of local and state representatives, I find this laughable. (I work for the Mural Arts Advocates - a publicly funded nonprofit.)
| The north American Union has presented a bureaucracy to control trade, boarders are as relevant in north america as state boarders, |
Tell that to all the illegal aliens who went through hell getting into this country, and all the ones who get deported. When's the last time someone from one state got deported to another state? (Edited to add: There are more people in federal prisons for being illegal aliens than for any other offense. This is no negligible matter.)
| the constitutional protections of individual rights are vanishing. |
I don't think so, buddy. The ACLU still wins plenty of cases. Many rights do get trampled on in times of war, but that is nothing new. And it is hardly happening in an extreme way when compared to other countries and other times in history. Not to mention that many mainstream politicians are talking about this issue and fighting to preserve our rights.
| Sovereign states are soon a thing of the past, including the USA. |
While this may happen some day, it is still a long way off. The USA is currently very much a sovereign state. In fact, it is still very much a strong sovereign state. The idea that the government has already "withered away" is absurd.
| No, I am making the argument that America has been intentionally brought to this stage to be able to create a trading zone for the world market. I am not making a judgment. I only find interesting that these facts are denied with such vigor in the face on indisputable information. |
What the hell does the world market have to do with the US being communist!? True Marxist communism's final state includes no concept of property rights. Obviously property must exist there is to be a world market.
Your whole argument that the USA is a de facto communist state has been disputed from every angle that you've presented. What is shocking is the vigor with which you are still defending this insane claim. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 06/17/2007 07:56:14 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 08:42:31 [Permalink]
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Marfknox, public schools are not a function of American constitutional government. Our military has not fought a declared war in fifty years, yet has fought many on behalf foreign powers. Claiming the resources of one group and distributing it to another is a communistic trait in violation of the constitution. All these examples you cite are proof of a communistic from of government.
Yes, the constitutional American state is defunct, and has been replaced by a corporate communism. (undeclared hence de facto)
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 08:47:44 [Permalink]
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Marfknox said "Many rights do get trampled on in times of war, but that is nothing new. And it is hardly happening in an extreme way when compared to other countries and other times in history. Not to mention that many mainstream politicians are talking about this issue and fighting to preserve our rights."
Have you examined the Patriot act and the military commissions act?
The mainstream politicians of which you refer voted for these.
By the way, there is no declared war.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 08:56:19 [Permalink]
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Marfknox said "The USA is currently very much a sovereign state. In fact, it is still very much a strong sovereign state. The idea that the government has already "withered away" is absurd."
Sovereign means:freedom from external control
(Websters)
Our military is used by foreign powers.
Our economy is manipulated by foreign interests.
Our boarders are unsecured in the face of a current invasion.
Our trade is regulated by an unelected bureaucracy.
None of these facts present a state with freedom from external power.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 09:23:54 [Permalink]
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Rickey, here is an article about the U.N. rules of engagement that the US troops in Bosnia must follow.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0365/is_n4_v38/ai_16443484
When did the US congress declare war in Bosnia?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 09:26:41 [Permalink]
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Rickey, our money supply; thus the economy, is controlled by unknown owners of the Federal Reserve Bank.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 09:29:46 [Permalink]
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Rickey, there have been recently mass demonstrations by foreign nationals on American soil claiming the right of reclamation of the southwest.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 09:33:05 [Permalink]
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Rickey, do you really need the alphabet soup of unelected bureaucracys that control world trade, including US trade?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 09:56:15 [Permalink]
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How about making one coherent post instead of four individual sentences that each start out with a misspelling of my name?
| Rickey, here is an article about the U.N. rules of engagement that the US troops in Bosnia must follow. |
Yes, the United States has entered into alliances, and in doing so, given up a very small fractional amount of power (this is done with every single agreement). But if the US wanted out of the UN, who would stop us?
| Rickey, our money supply; thus the economy, is controlled by unknown owners of the Federal Reserve Bank. |
What does this have to do with "Our economy is manipulated by foreign interests."?
| Rickey, there have been recently mass demonstrations by foreign nationals on American soil claiming the right of reclamation of the southwest. |
Yes, and the KKK does rallies every once in a while. Too bad that just about everyone else thinks each of these groups as a joke.
| Rickey, do you really need the alphabet soup of unelected bureaucracys that control world trade, including US trade? |
Great argument. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 10:17:38 [Permalink]
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Ricky, the power of a nation is held by its ability to protect itself. This nation requires a congressional vote to go to war. If American troops are engaging in war at the behest of a foreign government without a congressional vote, we have as a people lost both the ability to protect sovereignty and and the sovereign right of war.
Ricky, the names of the stock holders of the Federal Reserve Bank are not published. There is no reason to believe these unknowns are all American citizen looking out for the economic interests of America. In fact a strong case could be made that the Fed harms American interests.
Ricky, the invaders are not joking and neither is the US government with the reform bill in congress now. Have you read any of the reports about the bill which codifies part of the Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America signed in March of 2005.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 11:09:40 [Permalink]
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Alliances, including military and trade alliances are nothing new. Both NATO and our association with the UN, and trade agreements does not mean we have given up our sovereignty.
There can be lots of debate over any agreement we make with any foreign power. But in general, we do those things because they seem, by some, to be in the best interest of our nation. And unless you think our rightful place in the world is to tell everyone else to get lost, which is not realistic in this increasingly smaller world we live in, all of your arguments fall flat.
That we wholeheartedly embrace some forms of socialism does not mean we are a de facto communist state. What some of have realized is that no pure system of government actually works. A combination of good ideas from existing ideologies seems to work best, even if a more then a few rough edges still need to be worked out. (It is my contention, and I think it is evident, that no system government will ever be perfect.)
And frankly, I don't care if you think this is a de facto communist country. More to the point, even if it is, and that is a great big stretch, It doesn't matter to me as long as it serves the common good.
You will bitch and moan when we nationalize healthcare. I don't care. You will scream from the rooftops that we have become a socialist state, or it will be proof that we are a de facto communist state. I don't care.
There will always be a fringe that will piss and moan and whine about anything we do. And while their arguments should be considered, in the long run, we should do what is best for the most people. And if that happens to be different from what you advocate, I don't care.
If it turns out that you are correct, you will get to say I told you so… Lucky you.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 11:15:46 [Permalink]
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Ricky, the power of a nation is held by its ability to protect itself. This nation requires a congressional vote to go to war. If American troops are engaging in war at the behest of a foreign government without a congressional vote, we have as a people lost both the ability to protect sovereignty and and the sovereign right of war. |
The part in bold is a non-sequitur. First off, while I agree that it should be the congress which declares war and not the president, congress has relinquished this power to the president in some cases. Furthermore, even if it were the president to declare war, our citizens still vote for the president. You also must realize that there can be, and certainly are, conflicts without full out war.
But what does this have to do with our nation's sovereignty? What does this have to do with other nations using our military, as you argued not long ago? Nothing.
Ricky, the names of the stock holders of the Federal Reserve Bank are not published. There is no reason to believe these unknowns are all American citizen looking out for the economic interests of America. In fact a strong case could be made that the Fed harms American interests. |
What does this have to do with "Our economy is manipulated by foreign interests."???
Ricky, the invaders are not joking and neither is the US government with the reform bill in congress now. Have you read any of the reports about the bill which codifies part of the Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America signed in March of 2005. |
You honestly think some, any, people will be able to take land away from the continental US? But still, this has absolutely nothing to do with:
| Our boarders are unsecured in the face of a current invasion. |
Jerome, if you're going to continue to switch topics and move the goal posts, then I'm going to once again give up on responding to anything you say. Frankly, I'm sick of it.
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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USA is a De facto communist state
